1 Timothy 2:11-12 archived threads

[Andrew Chapman]

I have just been through the archives looking at threads relating to 1 Timothy 2:12, and pulling in one or two which concern verse 11, or the two verses together. I thought it might be helpful to others to post all the threads I have found. I have built upon the list posted by Professor Conrad in January 2003. I am not supposing that it is complete. In most cases the link is to the monthly archive, arranged by subject, so one only needs to scroll down to the title of the thread. For the January 2010 thread, you may need to search on the linked page for the title. I have given a very short extract from the first post in each thread, to give some idea of its nature. Where the thread has changed title mid-course, I have numbered each title. Andrew

GUNH EN HSUCIA -- 1Ti 2.11
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-arch ... bject.html
5 messages
Shaughn Daniel
Jan 11 1996
“3. What do you think of this rendering of v. 11? "But I do not allow women to teach IN A WAY THAT (OUDE) they exercise authority over men, but to be 
in submission (EN HSUCIA)" 
4. Can EN HSUCIA mean something like "to have a quiet manner", etc., without implying that they are not allowed to teach at all?”
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Greek help on women's issues
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-arch ... html#13486
7 messages
John R. Baldwin
Jun 06 1996
“He is re-evaluating Church of Christ positions on interpretations of I Cor 14:26-40 and I Tim 2:11-15.  ..”
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1) AUQENTEIN, 1Tim2.12
2) AUQENTEIN
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/ ... html#start
24 messages
Kyrychenko
15 May 1998
"What does AUQENTEIN in 1Tim2.12 mean in the context of the letter?"
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1 Tim 2:12
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
22 messages
Thomas Biddy
Jun 25 1998
“Can 1 Tim 2:12 mean wife?”
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1 Timothy 2:11 (actually 2:12)
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
4 messages
Michael Steinman
Oct 15 1999
“She states that "women" (GUNAIKI)is not in the accustive form so the infinitive "to teach" (DIDASKEIN)cannot refer to woman.”
….......
1 Timothy 2:12
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
18 messages
Michael Abernathy
Oct 16 1999
"A Is it probable that authentein gives the purpose for the teaching which Paul forbids?
B Is the following translation viable? I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority independent of her husband?"
…..................
1 Tim 2:11-12
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
3 messages
Roe
Jun 13 2000
“.could not MANQANETW (EN PASHi hUPOTAGHi) DIDASKEIN of 1 Tim 2:11 and 12 mean "learn ... to teach"?”
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1) 1 Tim. 2:12, meaning of AUQENTEIN
2) Meaning of AUQENTEIN
3) Thread closed
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
20 messages
Robert R Monti
Aug 11 2000
"I'm trying to get some in-depth information on the meaning of AUQENTEIN in 1 Tim. 2:12 I noticed that ANHR appears in the genitive here. Is this an example of the genitive object?"
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OUDE in 1 Timothy 2:12
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
11 messages
Dave Washburn
Feb 16 2001
“ I'm wondering if the OUDE, "nor," might have some explanatory force..”
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1 Tim 2:12--grammatical structure
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
3 messages
Jim Crouch
May 9 2001
“Can the word "man" (genitive, ANDROS, object of the infinitve AUQENTEIN) also be the object of the infinitive "DIDASKEIN?" “
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Lexical Semantics Methods
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
4 messages
c stirling bartholomew
May 15 2002
“Just finished reading H.S. Baldwin's treatment* of AUQENTEIN.”
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Titus [sic: 1 Timothy] 2:12 Explicative OUDE
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
2 messages
Frazier Conley 
May 18 2002
"Lenski: '..'neither to exercise authority over a man' states the point involved in the forbidding 'to teach.' ' "
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infinitive -> finite verb
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
12 messages
c stirling bartholomew
May 20 2002
“Andreas Kostenberger* states that the placement of DIDASKEIN prior to the finite verb EPITREPW does not have much significance..”
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1 Timothy 2:12 "Domineering?"
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
6 messages
Joel Thomas Banks
Jan 10 2003
“..in the Greek text, the verb "domineer" (NEB, "have authority" RSV NIV) qualifies "teach" and specifies what kind of teaching is prohibited.(102)..”
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1 Timothy 2:12
2) Fwd: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 2:12 
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
5 messages
Oetla Simankane
Jun 21 2004
"..Paul uses, DIDASKEIN (present infinitive) instead of > DIDAXAI (aorist infinitive).."
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I Tim 2:12
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... 34787.html (not in June 2005 archive)
2 messages
gene baker
Jun 18 2005
“Can OUDE be taken as indicating the content of the DIDASKALIA?”
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question re: authentein andros
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
2 messages
greg coupe
Sep 29 2005
“can the words "authentein andros" be interpreted to mean "To be self working (which is the task) of man." "
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Present Tense
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
4 messages
Seth 
Jul 9 2007
“.. continual regularity in regard to teaching and leading; as opposed to individual, finite instances..”
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1Tim2:12 - man or husband?
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
2 messages
'Adrian'
Apr 19 2008
“I've read a few authors who say that the use of the genitive singular ANDROS in this verse means that this should be translated as husband”
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Diagraming 1 TI 2:12.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... bject.html
4 messages
bdgayton
Jul 29 2008
“does the conjunction "nor" tie both of the infinitives "to teach" and "to have authority over" a man?”
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What case does the object of AUQENTEIN take? - 1 Tim 2:12
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-gr ... hread.html
10 messages
Eric S. Weiss
Jan 16 2010
“What case does the object of AUQENTEIN usually take?”
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1 Tim 2:12 - should both infinitives apply to ANHR?
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... ?f=6&t=684
12 posts
Eric S. Weiss
August 22nd, 2011
“Does the word order seem to favor just AUQENTEIN pertaining to ANHR ..”

[Stirling Bartholomew]

Andrew,

I didn't read all those the threads. Rather I pulled out and dusted off Mounce, Marshal and Knight and read what they had to say again. Looking at the passage it really amazes me that such a lucid text could produce so much controversy. Someone has to really want very badly to misunderstand the author to find ambiguity here.

[Andrew Chapman]

Clayton, I had in mind that those like myself who are relatively new to the forum and didn't participate in those threads, could read what has been discussed before before asking questions or making observations on these two verses of scripture. With regard to commentaries, I have compiled into one file nine commentaries on verses 11 to 15 published in English between 1850 and 1918 (http://womeninthechurch.co.uk/wp-conten ... e-1918.pdf). The authors are Bengel (originally 1742), Ellicott (1856), Alford (1865), Fairbairn (1874), Huther (1885), Humphreys (1897), Bernard (1899), Kelly (1913) and Brown (1917). None of them find any difficulty in verses 11 or 12, and they all seem to think that:

διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ.

means something like:

But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to lord it over the man, but to be in silence. [Fairbairn]

with minor variations. None have ἀνδρός as the object of διδάσκειν, contrary to Knight and Mounce.

Andrew

[Stirling Bartholomew]

Andrew,

It is good to make all these resources accessible since there are always students out there who have to confront these questions.


In the last half century reading "against the text" has become mainstream. The "difficulties" are a matter of cultural assumptions which probably falls under heading of hermeneutics. If the reader adopts a secular feminist stance viewing the author of 1Tim as typical 1st Cent. Jewish male everything makes perfectly good sense and the message is abundantly clear. If the readier sets out to demonstrate that the author was promoting a realized eschatology where everyone was "equal" the task becomes exceedingly difficult. All of this is off topic for this forum.

[Michael Abernathy]

Andrew Chapman wrote

"None of them find any difficulty in verses 11 or 12, and they all seem to think that:

διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ.


means something like:

But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to lord it over the man, but to be in silence"

I can honestly say that some of those who have written on this passage give the appearance that they are desperately searching for any interpretation that does not confirm the traditional interpretation. However, it is a mistake to think that all those who question the traditional interpretation are coming from a theological bias.
Some of the different interpretations have come about because the translator is making use of new resources unavailable to the classical works you mentioned. For example, the advent of the modern computer made it possible to examine every known reference to αὐθεντέω. See Wilshire's book Insight into Two Biblical Passages: Anatomy of a Prohibition I Timothy 2:12, the TLG Computer, and the Christian Church; A.C. Perriman's article in Tyndale Bulletin 44:1 "What Eve Did, What Women Shouldn't Do:The Meaning of Authentew on 1 Timothy 2:12, and Carroll Osburn's article in Restoration Quarterly vol 24, no 4 "AUQENTEW (1 Timothy 2:12) among others. Osburn pointed out that αὐθεντέω one of the texts closest in time to 1 Timothy, a third century lexicon written by Moeris, αὐθεντέω was defined as "self rule."

I won't deny that the traditional translation is possible but I'm not certain it is the most likely translation. Wilshire noted that in every other New Testament passage connecting authority with teaching we find ἐξουσία instead of αὐθεντέω. And Gordon P. Hugenberger notes several reasons for translating ἀνδρός as husband (Hugenberger, Gordon P. "Women In Church Office: Hermeneutics Or Exegesis? A Survey Of Approaches To 1 Tim 2:8-15." Journal of Evangelical Theological Society. vol. 35. no. 3 (September 1992): 341-360).

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to convince you of any particular translation. I just want you to be aware that there are good reasons to take a second look at what appears to be a straightforward translation of the text.
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy

[S Walch]

and Carroll Osburn's article in Restoration Quarterly vol 24, no 4 "AUQENTEW (1 Timothy 2:12) among others. Osburn pointed out that αὐθεντέω one of the texts closest in time to 1 Timothy, a third century lexicon written by Moeris, αὐθεντέω was defined as "self rule."

(Just a quick note, Michael: this is actually found in Vol 25, no. 1 - http://www.acu.edu/sponsored/restoratio ... tents.html - Desperately trying to find a place to get the article)

[Andrew Chapman]

.. a third century lexicon written by Moeris, αὐθεντέω was defined as "self rule."

Here is Moeris, in J. Pierson's edition of 1759:

Moeris on authentein.png (58.36 KiB) Viewed 4726 times

and note 3 reads:

Moeris on authentein note.png (35.89 KiB) Viewed 4726 times

which I believe says that Pierson accepts the conjecture that these are present infinitives. It may be worth pointing out, however, that in other cases, and I have checked a substantial portion of Moeris's Lexicon, present infinitives are given with the normal εῖν ending. But still, it seems hard to think of an alternative explanation.

αὐτοδικεῖν means, according to Liddell and Scott, to [have] independent jurisdiction, with one's own courts; and this type of idea is reflected in the first meaning BDAG gives for αὐθεντεῖν - 'to assume a stance of independent authority'.

You asked, on 16 October 1999:

Is the following translation viable? I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority independent of her husband?

and Professor Conrad answered on the same day:

I think this is quite unlikely; more likely is "exercise authority over a man." ANDROS is the genitive direct complement in this instance; many verbs of governing or ruling take a genitive direct complement. Moreover, I would personally expect that if ANDROS referred specifically to the husband of the woman referred to be GUNAIKI, there would be an article and the phrase would be AUQENTEIN TOU ANDROS.

There is no doubt that αὐθεντεῖν can have this sense of acting independently, in one's own sphere, but the question is whether it can be used in this way with the genitive of a person to mean acting independently of that person. In Henry Baldwin's chapter in 'Women in the Church' [Kostenberger.., 2nd ed] he distinguishes between two such senses - his 3. 'to act independently' and his 3b. 'to exercise one's own jurisdiction'. He claims that while there are several cases of αὐθεντεῖν being used with each of these senses (although the earliest he gives is 390AD), in no case does it carry an object as it does in 1 Timothy 2:12. So I feel that the onus is on you to demonstrate that αὐθεντεῖν can be used in this kind of way.

Andrew

[Michael Abernathy]

Actually, I wasn't referring to my earlier supposition but to an article by Carroll Osburn--Osburn, Carroll D. "AUQENTEW (1 Timothy 2:12)." Restoration Quarterly. vol. 24. no. 4 (1981): 1-12. But also see Martin Dibelius and Hans Conzelmann, The Pastoral Epistles: a Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles, Hermeneia—a Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1972), 47. The author here is simply establishing that αὐθεντέω has a more general meaning than we normally assign it. He goes on to point to a first century reference where it means "self assured, firm conduct." That translation does not seem too far from the "act authoritatively" suggested by Perriman.
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy

[Andrew Chapman]

Thanks, Michael. You had suggested 'self-rule' as a meaning of αὐθεντεῖν. One can hardly say 'self-rule of a man (or husband)', so I had reckoned you must be thinking of something like your previous 'exercise authority independent of..'. I have no problem with Perriman's understanding of the meaning of αὐθεντεῖν, and agree that it is more to do with exercising authority than being in a position of authority per se. His idea that verse 12 is a parenthesis, so that verses 13 and 14 relate only to verse 11, seems very strange to me. There seems to be much agreement that διδάσκεῖν is emphatic because of it's position at the beginning of the verse. See eg Ellicott 'διδάσκεῖν is emphatic as its position shows'; Huther: 'διδάσκεῖν stands first in emphatic opposition to μανθάνεῖν'; and Humphreys, who makes the further point that this lends emphasis to the instruction itself: '12. The direction is made more emphatic by the position of the verb "to teach" .. at the beginning of the clause: "But teaching I permit not to a woman".' Likewise, in a discussion on the word order in verse 12 on B-Greek ('Infinitive -> finite verb', May 2002), Carl Conrad rendered the sense of 11-12a as:

I'd convey the force of the word-order thus: "A woman is to learn in silence in total submission, and as for teaching, I don't allow a woman (to do it) ..."

which met with general approval. See also Iver Larsen's 'Word Order and Relative Prominence in New Testament Greek', where he is so bold as to say 'The more to the left an item occurs, the more prominent it is.'

I see that Perriman agrees that διδάσκεῖν is emphatic within verse 12, and actually sees this as favouring his parenthesis idea - but I don't see how this could work - 'Let a woman learn in quietness in all submission.. and by the way, to be teaching I do not permit a woman' - is impossible I think. He cites BDF §447 (7) in support of δέ being used to introduce a parenthesis, but the examples one finds there are hardly comparable, eg. Acts 12:3 .. (ἦσαν δὲ αἱ ἡμέραι τῶν ἀζύμων) (Now it was during the days of Unleavened Bread) .. where parenthetical information is being inserted into a narrative. Rather, I think δὲ is being used to express a 'general contrast' (BDF §447) between μανθανέτω and διδάσκειν. Paul's instructions and following explanation seem to me to flow quite naturally from verse 11 to 12 (contra Perriman p. 130) and then onwards to 13 and 14. I see no sign of a parenthesis.

Andrew

[Michael Abernathy]

It is my understanding that αὐθεντεῖν is very rare in earlier texts. I think I saw some claim that there are only 7 uses in extant texts. I don't have those available so I can only rely on what others have claimed. Could someone with greater resources give us a few texts to compare?
Sincerely,
Michael Abernathy