John 14.12

[Thomas Hagen]

Hello - I have a question concerning John 14.12: "Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει, καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει, ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι". I would like to ask if the phrase "ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι" relates to both actions of the one believing in Christ, that is "τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει" and "μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει" or if it relates only to the latter.
Thank you -
Thomas

[Jason Hare]

Hello - I have a question concerning John 14.12: "Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει, καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει, ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι". I would like to ask if the phrase "ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι" relates to both actions of the one believing in Christ, that is "τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει" and "μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει" or if it relates only to the latter.
Thank you -
Thomas

Hi, Thomas. Just some housekeeping... to participate, we would like to have more than just a first name. You can add your full name in your signature here. You might also mention any academic or biblical language association you have.

I think you’re asking if the subject of the first ποιήσει and the second ποιήσει is the same subject, namely ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμέ (τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν, εἰς Χριστόν). Yes, it is the same subject.

[Thomas Hagen]

Hello again. I clicked on "here" and added my full name; I hope it did the trick. All right, just a brief introduction. Actually, I am returning to the Forum after a rather lengthy absence. So lengthy that I couldn't remember either username or password and had to re-register with a different email address.

I live in Livorno, Italy where I am one of the lay preachers in the local Baptist church. I have never formally studied Greek but I have picked up enough to profit from consulting thesauruses, commentaries, etc. where the Greek text is explained. I have already submitted questions to the Forum when, for my sermon preparation, I needed clarification on a text. And that is the case for the question I have submitted now.

Evidently, I did not explain myself very well in the exposition of my question. I was not asking about the subject of the verb ποιήσει. It was clear to me that the subject is the same in both cases. Let me try to reword my question.

The sentence concludes with the phrase: "ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι·". This appears to be the condition which enables the one believing in Christ to perform the very works of Christ. My question is whether the structure of the sentence is such that this condition relates only to the second use of ποιήσει (καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει) or whether it relates to the first use as well (τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει).

I would also like to add another question. In the phrase "τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ", is the presence of ἐγὼ emphatic, or is it a simple, ordinary, mundane subject?

In the past, I have benefitted greatly from the answers I have found to my questions here in the Forum. I'm sure that will be the case also this time - if I'm able to clearly present my query!

Thank you all for your commitment to helping all of us learners!

Thomas Hagen

[Jason Hare]

Hello again. I clicked on "here" and added my full name; I hope it did the trick. All right, just a brief introduction. Actually, I am returning to the Forum after a rather lengthy absence. So lengthy that I couldn't remember either username or password and had to re-register with a different email address.

All good.

I live in Livorno, Italy where I am one of the lay preachers in the local Baptist church. I have never formally studied Greek but I have picked up enough to profit from consulting thesauruses, commentaries, etc. where the Greek text is explained. I have already submitted questions to the Forum when, for my sermon preparation, I needed clarification on a text. And that is the case for the question I have submitted now.

Welcome back to B-Greek!

Evidently, I did not explain myself very well in the exposition of my question. I was not asking about the subject of the verb ποιήσει. It was clear to me that the subject is the same in both cases. Let me try to reword my question.

The sentence concludes with the phrase: "ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι·". This appears to be the condition which enables the one believing in Christ to perform the very works of Christ. My question is whether the structure of the sentence is such that this condition relates only to the second use of ποιήσει (καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει) or whether it relates to the first use as well (τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει).

I’m still not sure that I understand your question as different from what I already responded. It means that “that person” (the one who believes) will both do the works that Jesus did and do greater works than what Jesus did. This is how I would understand the verse. Does that get at answering your question?

I would also like to add another question. In the phrase "τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ", is the presence of ἐγὼ emphatic, or is it a simple, ordinary, mundane subject?

Yes, the ἐγώ here is in contrast to the subject ἐκεῖνος of the verb ποιήσει. It should certainly be taken as contrastive, though “emphatic” may be overdone.

In the past, I have benefitted greatly from the answers I have found to my questions here in the Forum. I'm sure that will be the case also this time - if I'm able to clearly present my query!

Thank you all for your commitment to helping all of us learners!

Thomas Hagen

Welcome back. Both B-Greek and B-Hebrew have had a reduction in activity, but I’m hoping that both places will again become the bastions of Greek and Hebrew scholarship that they have been known to be!

[Thomas Hagen]

I'm sorry but I do not know how to copy your comments into my reply in such a way as to distinguish them from mine (as you did with: "Thomas wrote:" with the text in a different colored rectangle). I'll do my best to avoid confusion.

First of all, thank you for your answer concerning the presence of ἐγὼ in the phrase "τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ". It helped me understand the sense of the phrase more fully.

Concerning my main question, I want to thank you for your patience, but I'm afraid I have to ask you to bear with me just a little more. I completely agree with what you have written, but that is not what I am asking about. Perhaps what I am asking is so obvious that you can't imagine my asking it. However, even if it may seem obvious to you, please bear with my ignorance because it is not obvious to me.

You wrote: "I’m still not sure that I understand your question as different from what I already responded. It means that “that person” (the one who believes) will both do the works that Jesus did and do greater works than what Jesus did. This is how I would understand the verse. Does that get at answering your question?"

I'll try writing everything in English (no Greek text) in the hope that I can explain myself clearly. My question concerns the scope of the concluding phrase of the verse: "because I go to the Father". In the English and Italian translations which I have seen, the punctuation of the verse lends itself to the impression that this condition (because I go to the Father) relates ONLY to the performing of the "greater works" which Jesus mentions. I would like to know if this is the case, or if also the performing of the "ordinary" works of Jesus will only be possible because Jesus goes to the Father. To put it another way: is Jesus' going to the Father the necessary condition for performing both the ordinary and the greater works? Is there anything in the structure of the verse which clarifies this point?

I sincerely hope I have succeeded in presenting my question unambiguously. Please do not think that any answer is too simple or too obvious. I thank you again for your patience and perseverance in putting up with my attempts to present this topic. If even this time you do not see anything different in my question from what you saw before, well then, I would say to leave it at that and wait till the next occasion.

Thomas

[dougknighton]

Thomas you wrote: John 14.12: "Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει, καὶ μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει, ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι". I would like to ask if the phrase "ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι" relates to both actions of the one believing in Christ, that is "τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ κἀκεῖνος ποιήσει" and "μείζονα τούτων ποιήσει" or if it relates only to the latter.
Thank you –

Thomas, I meant to respond a couple days ago, but life got in the way. I know you’re not asking about the subject of the verbs (ποιήσει), but about whether the causal clause ὅτι ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸν πατέρα πορεύομαι supports just the immediately preceding assertion about what the disciples will be able to do, or both of the assertions about what they will be able to do. This is more a question of hermeneutics rather than one of Greek. The causal clause certainly supports the second assertion, but it can also support the first as well. One plausible syntactical reason for preferring a double connection is that Jesus does not repeat τὰ ἔργα in the second clause. In this way he causes us to construe the two promise clauses as two parts of one larger promise. Thus the ground beginning with ὅτι provides the reason why ὁ πιστεύων (the disciples who are with him; 14:11 πιστεύετέ μοι, but expandable to us) can expect the promises to come true. Since we don’t discuss theology in this forum, I’ll send you a separate message with a couple of hermeneutical questions I think you would do well to consider.

Meyer’s NT Commentary (on Biblehum.com) argues this way: ὅτι, κ.τ.λ.] assigns the reasons of the preceding assurance, τὰ ἔργα ἃ ἐγὼ ποιῶ … μείζ. τούτ. ποιήσει (not merely the μείζονα, for which limitation no reason presents itself), and this statement of reason continues to the end of John 14:13, so that καὶ ὅ, τι ἂν still depends on ὅτι. Since He is going to the Father, and is thereby elevated to the position of heavenly rule, He will do all that they shall ask in His name, there can be no doubt that the assurance of those ἔργα will be justified. So, substantially, Grotius, Lücke, Olshausen, De Wette, Ewald, Godet, comp. already Cyril. Considering the internal coherence, and the immediately continuative καί, John 14:13, it is incompetent to separate John 14:13, as if it were independent, from John 14:12.

Hope this helps,
Doug Knighton, Ch COL USAF (RET)

[Thomas Hagen]

Doug - Yes, what you wrote has helped significantly. I also felt that both "categories" of works were covered by "because I go to the Father". I was interested in seeing if there were linguistic reasons to support any hermeneutical conclusions. Thank you for providing them!
Thomas