[compost_tea] Re: Tilling is sometimes necessary!

From: hi_yield1 <hi_yield1_at_yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:43:00 -0000

Oliver
That is my point exactly, TILLING IS SOMETIMES NECESSARY!! I also
agree that once you have the physcial properties adjusted to your
liking then no tilling is also an option that works. Mulching is very
important and overlooked. I think what ever you do, don't become a
ZEALOT!! If you move to far to the left or right in your way of
thinking you lose sight of middle ground. When you surf the web
looking for answers try and find peer review articles, that means the
methods, results, and conclusions were found to be scientifically
viable by objective outside scientists!! I applaud you for keeping an
open mind!! Take care Hi_Yield1.

--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, oliver hauver <enoc2222_at_y...>
wrote:
> Hi
> Hi yeilds
> i agree with partly agree with you
> i can't wait ten years to rebuild my soil but i do think there are
othere ways besides tilling like raised beds.ect(except when i start a
new bed then i have no other choice)
> My dad is reading some books about no till gardening
> and i have had a peek at one and to me no tilling sounds better to
me when i have gotten my soil a bit better(it also sounds fun because
i love playing in tall grass.ect :-)
> also no tilling to me i think is less labor intensive can get thing
done better.
> also i wanted to note that i live in nevada near las vegas
> Cheers
> Oliver
>
>
> hi_yield1 <hi_yield1_at_y...> wrote:
> David,
> If you are looking to grow prairie grass or a lawn then I guess
> tilling is a waste of time. However if you are trying to cultivate a
> piece of land year after year like Oliver is somewhere in Arizona
> that's not gonna work. He probably gets all of his moisture in the
> spring, waterlogging the clay soil. Then it gets hot and the soil
> dries out turning to cement. Maybe infrequent long waterings are not
> an option where he lives? Some western states are having a real
water
> shortage these days?? Flocculating the clay soils( cation exchange
)is
> part of the solution but in some cases you would have to add far to
> much Calcium screwing everything else up. If you were to keep adding
> layer after layer of sawdust down then yes in 10 years you probably
> would have a nice raised bed. What have you changed below the saw
> dust? Remember Oliver is growing a garden,food stuff. Most of the
> plants are shallow rooted, lots of surface feeder roots, and he
> replants each year. Has anyone ever gone to the garden store and
> bought a bag of cement to start your seedlings and grow your plants
> in? NO! Sometimes the soils PHYSCIAL PROPERTIES have to be changed
> manually! Correct particle sizing creates drainage. The do nothing(
no
> till ) approach and super sauce is not always gonna work?? Life is
> about regeneration, so what if a few hundred thousand microbes die
> when you till. After your seedlings have come up ,MULCH. That's
gonna
> allow the microbes to thrive once again and the shallow feeder roots
> to thrive as well. Not everyone has acres and acres of land to
choose
> just the rigth spot for a garden. Some have to turn a sows ear into
a
> silk purse and the sooner the better, not 10 years down the road.
> Don't Pulverize just Incorporate. Take care Hi_Yield1.
>
>
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "David Hall" <dchall8_at_t...>
wrote:
> > From what I've seen on the gardening discussion boards over the
> past
> > few years, tilling is not necessary under any of the
circumstances
> > I've seen mentioned on this board. After discussing the various
> > theories and methods with both amateurs and professionals in the
> > turf care business, the consolidated wisdom of the recent ages
> comes
> > down to four basic techniques. The super compaction and soggy
> areas
> > are almost universally cleared up by [in order of importance] a
> > combination of [1] deep infrequent watering (maybe starting with
a
> > black soaker hose left on trickle for a few weeks); [2] mowing
> grass
> > as high as possible (or even letting grass grow for months
without
> > mowing); [3] protein-based organic fertilizer and/or organic top
> > dressing (prolonged use of sawdust is particularly good); and [4]
> > the total cessation of insecticide, fungicide, and herbicide.
> >
> > What you are trying to accomplish with these methods is to deepen
> > your plant roots below any hardpan you might have developed from
> > previous poor watering habits. Not coincidentally, these methods
> > favor proper microbial growth at each "zone" under the surface.
> > Deep roots cannot grow unless and until the moisture is deep. So
> > deep infrequent watering is paramount to softening the soil.
Tall
> > grass supports deep roots by sending more carbs to the roots.
When
> > you continually clip the grass off short, the roots develop near
> the
> > surface only. One method used by grass farming livestock
graziers
> > to develop their pastures' organic material is to deep cycle
their
> > grass. They will grow it very long (maybe 4 feet tall or more)
and
> > then cut it very short (4 inches or less). What this does is
> > essentially pump roots several feet into the soil and then kill
off
> > the deepest roots. This leaves the dead roots to provide
"organic
> > matter" feed for the microbes at all soil depths to munch on.
And
> > the idea of using sawdust to soften the soil will rankle some
> > folks. Doesn't everyone know that sawdust lasts forever and
> > will "remove" nitrogen from the soil? Well, not everyone knows
> > that. When sawdust is used as a topdressing only and not tilled
> in,
> > it cannot remove nitrogen from the soil. What apparently happens
> > instead is the fungi that decompose sawdust become extremely
adept
> > at decomposing sawdust and it starts to disappear more quickly
year
> > after year. One writer reported that after 10 years of sawdust,
he
> > could plunge his arms up to his elbows into his formerly ceramic
> > quality clay.
> >
> > The wise people of the Internet have mentioned the following
> > problems with tilling. Some have been mentioned elsewhere on
this
> > list. Tilling...
> > 1. Pulverizes the soil aggregate structure caused by beneficial
> > microbial glues leaving a fluffy mineral dust which the bacteria
> > must start over with to reform a structure.
> > 2. Eliminates the earthworm tunnels which provide air and water
> > deep into the soil.
> > 3. Eliminates fungal hyphal tunnels which provide air and water
> > deeper into the soil.
> > 4. Shreds fungal hyphae killing them off.
> > 5. Brings the bottom dwelling microbes to the surface to die.
> > 6. Sends the top dwelling microbes to the bottom to die.
> > 7. Blows carbon dioxide out of the soil and temporarily replaces
> it
> > with oxygen.
> >
> > So what's happening with a soggy low lying area? Likely as not
all
> > the fungi have been killed off due to the anaerobic conditions
> > caused by standing water. Tilling in compost would seem to solve
> > the problem but it doesn't for reasons 1, 5, 6, and 7 above. A
> > suggested repair would be to first eliminate the low lying area
by
> > leveling (if it is in the middle of an otherwise flat area). If
> the
> > low lying area is in a naturally rolling area, then flattening is
> > not a good idea. Instead the selection of deep rooting plants or
> > water loving plants is more appropriate. Usually the plants that
> > work would be called weeds, but if you use them right, they can
> look
> > pretty nice. Some of the clovers make better weed choices than
> some
> > other weed choices. Clovers at least can be contained. If you
> want
> > really deep roots, try alfalfa for a few years. Alfalfa has been
> > reported to send roots into coal mines a hundred feet
underground.
> > In any case, compost should be top dressed (not tilled) in
> > appropriate amounts.
> >
> > David Hall
> > San Antonio, TX
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "hi_yield1" <hi_yield1_at_y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Good point Chris,
> > > Oliver, if you are trying to garden in a low lying area and you
> > have
> > > little if any drainage either down or away from where your
> > planting.
> > > You need to till deep enough(adding coarser material) to break
> > through
> > > or deep enough to keep the root zone out of the watertable. I
> think
> > > both adding enough organic matter to create a raised bed and
> > tilling
> > > in would work best. Take care
> > > Hi_Yield1.
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, chris reid <reidchris_at_e...>
> > wrote:
> > > > Oliver,
> > > >
> > > > Does the lay of the land have any effect on how much water is
in
> > > your clay
> > > > soil? In other words, when it rains, is all the rain pooling
in
> > > one low
> > > > spot or what?
> > > >
> > > > Also, if you want to get a soil test, maybe you can get one
from
> > > Colorado
> > > > since Nevada doesn't offer this service. CSU does homeowner
> soil
> > > tests.
> > > > There is a charge, but I don't know what it is. You can
contact
> > > the lab
> > > > manager -- see the link below:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/SoilCrop/service.html
> > > >
> > > > A description of how to take a soil sample is included below:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/SoilCrop/Soilsub.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Chris Reid
> > > >
> > > > -
>
>
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Received on Thu Dec 04 2003 - 19:18:46 EST

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