[compost_tea] Re: Tea and powdery mildew

From: Titel Ryzhomer <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:29:46 -0000

Hi Ted,

You don't say how the horse manure batches were composted nor how
long prior to tea composition the wormer was used. I believe it is
generally accepted in the worm world (via Kelly Slocum) that wormer
in horse manure dissapates quite rapidly in the heap or laying in
the field. Some people successfully feed it to their worms in as
little as three days, however I do not subscribe to that rationale.
Most suggest that the manure sit for a minimum of a month.

Having said that, the little bit of partially digested vermicompost
which we have purchased has been in the worm windrow for about 6
months and has live healthy worms in it which are very susceptible
to wormer. There are also lots of springtails and other good bugs
visible with my lowly jeweler's orb (I envy you your microscope)
making it unlikely that there is any residual wormer.

Furthermore, we have observed the powdery mildew suppression
(remission) effect using the commercial worm castings referred to
earlier as our only compost input.

As regards our own worms, which we have yet to harvest any
vermicompost from, the only horse manure fed to them is from our own
horses. Our horses are pasture 'wild hores' which are usually wormed
only once per year. The manure collected (by hand from the field or
with the tractor from the hay shed) is usually about 1 year to 4
years old and is mixed with scattered non-irrigated hay (Timothy,
Alfalfa, Fescue, Red Clover, Alsikes Clover. Oat, etc.)

I very much doubt if there is any residual wormer nor any man
construed chemicals of any kind.

The tea batch which we have just applied today is made with the worm
castings as the only compost ingredient. I'll let you know if it
works. I may be delayed in posting for a week as I need to travel
and my farm partner won't touch a computer. BTW the tea we brew has
(it appears) been successful in 100% prevention of powdery mildew
over this past growing season in beds which last year were inundated
with powdery mildew. We applied it regularly, at least every 14 days.

Do you use rock phosphate and/or pyrophylite clay powder in your
brews? What is your water source?

The term compost is unfortunately elusive and poorly defined. I have
seen people call lumpy woody stuff compost and indeed have seen it
for sale and bought it. My idea of finished compost is pure gukky or
dry humus free of any recognizable shapes delineating former
existence. This is the compost I'm working towards but in the
interim use the commercial worm castings which are the best
substitute on the market.


Regards,
Titel

--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Ted Peterson"
<ted.peterson_at_t...> wrote:
> Titel:
>
> I too make some compost with horse manure.  I have found that I
have to be exremely careful that the manure isn't full of wormer
medicine or pain killer given to a lot of horses.  By far the most
damaging to biological life is manure containing worm medicine.  I
made three separate batches of compost for an experiment: All three
batches used the same mixtures and were treated the same.  I then
made compost tea in three brewers using the same recipe for each.
All the horses were fed hay but had open grazing on local grasslands.
>
> Batch 1: Horse with wormer. Corraled and treated with wormer.
> Batch 2: Horse without wormer.  These were corraled in a large
area. None were treated in any way.
> Batch 3:  Cow without any horse manure.  No treatement. (I used
this as a control.)
>
> Batch 1 tested far lower in biomass and showed no indication of
micro-nematodes in the compost and brewing.  In batches 2 and 3,
fungi started grwoing in the compost and extracted into the tea. 
Batch 1 showed no similar fungal growth.  Biomass of Batch 1 was far
lower than the other batches. 
>
> I have a 1000X microscope and have figured out how to use
flourescent light and dyes to increase my observations of bacteria
but even with that, I can't make any definitive statements about
diversity.  The bacteria I did see were rod and cocci.  I saw no
strep in any sample.  Bacterial counts were lower in Batch 1.
>
> So, the situation could exist that the compost tea you brewed was
made using compost that contained enough residual medicine from the
wormer to impact the mildew.  While this would be good, use of that
tea wouldn't necessarily be simething you wanted to promote.  You
would be inhibiting all biological life and the way tea works is to
coat a leaf/branch surface with beneficial microbes that outcompete
the mildew. 
>
> From what I have read, mildew needs a large (about 40-70%) of a
leaf area to become established.  It appears to be root borne which
contradicted my belief that it was air borne.  So using a tea with
wormer my affect existing mildew but do nothing to establish a
healthy microbial layer that could outcompete further occurances. 
>
> I have stopped using horse manure from any source where the horses
were wormed.  As far as I can tell, worm medicine, as well as
vitamins given to horses through feed, does not necessarily break
down during the composting process.  That means they transfer to the
tea during brewing.
>
> Ted Peterson
> EW/SOE
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Titel Ryzhomer
>   To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 8:41 AM
>   Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Tea and powdery mildew
>
>
>
>   Dave,
>
>   I do agree with your stated hypothesis. We have been building
our
>   worm population and have not harvested any compost from them
yet. I
>   have been buying castings from a supplier that feeds them grain
of
>   some sort (secret?) and peat moss. This would make their diet
high
>   in carbon but (I think) lacking nitrogen. I buy the partially
>   finished vermicompost from a supplier who feeds horse manure and
>   bedding wood chips and sawdust complimented by grocery store
produce
>   throw aways.
>
>   I feed my worms peat moss, cardboard, horse manure, alfalfa
meal,
>   old hay, green plants from our experimental beds and AEM
(activated
>   EM) soaked kitchen waste. We have them in bins as well as in a
>   windrow which we have just moved inta a small barn built for
this
>   purpose. We have two bins ready to harvest in about a week.
>
>   Regards,
>   Titel
>
>   --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, David Anderson <squtch@g...>
>   wrote:
>   > On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 03:35:02 -0000, Titel Ryzhomer
>   > <thegoodjob_at_h...> wrote:
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > Except Titel is not using any plants; only the ingredients
he
>   stated.
>   > >
>   > > Titel
>   >
>   > What do you feed your worms?
>   >
>   > Even if you feed them manure instead of plant material, what
>   plants do
>   > you feed your manure producers.
>   >
>   > If you feed them only cardboard, that probably varies enough
from
>   what
>   > most of us feed our worms that it would be worth looking into.
>   >
>   > The point is that when looking for the cause of the action,
you
>   should
>   > not be concentrating soly on the biology, but you should also
>   consider
>   > the chemical and physical.
>   >
>   > Dave
>
>
>
>
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Received on Sun Oct 24 2004 - 16:16:14 EDT

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