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Returned mail: Re: Vietnam War Anniversary



> 5/2/00
>
> Howard --
>
> Well said.  If you were in the course I teach on the U.S. in Vietnam,
> you'd get an A.
>
> Unfortunately, before I learned about the early history of U.S.-Vietnamese
> (specifically Viet Minh) relations and the missed opportunities you
> referred to, I enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1967.  The reason was
> that I, like most Americans then, bought into the whole misguided doctrine
> of containment and the domino theory.  While in training and later in
> Vietnam (1968-1969), I learned more about the record of U.S. involvement
> there and by the time I got home, felt the U.S. had made a terrible
> mistake and should get out.
>
> As for the "Stalinist" (Viet Cong and North Vietnamese) and Maoist (Khmer
> Rouge) regimes Mr. Scott alludes to, it should be pointed out that while
> the VC/NVA were allied in the early 1970s, the U.S. government must bear
> much of the blame for the tragedies that unfolded, particularly in
> Cambodia.  To wit,
>
> 1.  Nixon's "secret" 1969 bombing of eastern Cambodia subverted that
> country's delicate neutrality, creating unstable conditions in parts of
> the country that made the locals ripe for Khmer Rouge recruitment.  Not
> only that, but the bombing and the 1970 "incursion" simply drove the
> VC/NVA further into that country, causing greater political turmoil.
> While it is true that the Khmer Rouge is primarily responsible for what
> happened in Cambodia from 1975 to 1979, U.S. leaders at the time
> nonetheless have blood on their hands.
>
> 2.  It was the "Stalinists" of Vietnam, not the Americans, who overthrew
> the murderous Khmer Rouge regime, in 1979.
>
> 3.  An horrific but little noticed fact is that the U.S. continued to
> recognize the Khmer Rouge movement as the legitimate government.
> And since 1979 the U.S. funneled indirect support to its guerilla campaign
> against the new government in Phnom Penh.  True, the Vienamese-installed
> rulers were former KRs and beholden to the Vietnamese, but at least the KR
> "communes" (read concentration camps) were dismantled and the wholesale
> massacres were stopped.
>
> It so happens that I am processing some records concerning visits that
> former U.S. Sec. of State Edmund S. Muskie made to Cambodia and Vietnam in
> 1989 and 1993.  A good part of the material deals with the U.S
> government's insistence on providing indirect support to the Khmer Rouge.
> It makes interesting, if sickening, reading.
>
> Just one quibble with your statement: Bao Dai, scion of the discredited
> royal family and Japanese and French collaborator, was placed in charge of
> a rump State of Vietnam in 1949 by French colonial authorities under
> pressure by the Americans to find a way to thwart increasingly powerful
> Viet Minh.  While it was true the U.S. went along with his appointment, in
> 1955 the Americans endorsed his ouster by Diem because they realized he
> had no credibility.
>
> Diem turned out to be a disaster for the U.S. but I would hardly call him
> a buffoon.  He was worse: starting in 1954 he quickly established a
> dictatorship in the southern part of Vietnam, refused to broaden his
> government beyond an inner circle of family members and lackeys, embarked
> on a draconic campaign of repression that targeted not only southern Viet
> Minh (i.e., those who fought against the French) but anyone else who
> opposed his regime, and built his government upon a narrow base of
> northern Catholics (in a country that is 80 percent Buddhist), wealthy
> landowners and former French collaborators.  A ludicrous aspect of this
> phase of the growing U.S. involvement in Vietnam was that Diem refused to
> follow American advice to reform his government and thereby undercut the
> burgeoning Viet Cong rebellion, lest he be seen as an American puppet!
>
> Enough said for the time being.  Frankly, 25 year ago at this time, I was
> relieved the war was over.  The whole U.S. campaign in Vietnam was marked
> by deceit and self-delusion.  Scores of thousands of Americans and
> hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese paid for our leaders' cowardice with
> their lives.  Perhaps to impart some meaning to his squandering of blood
> and treasure would be to study the history of this tragedy.
>
>
> Christopher M. Beam
> (USMC, 1967-1970; Vietnam, 1968-1969)
> Director, The Edmund S. Muskie Archives
> Lecturer, Department of History
> Bates College, 70 Campus Avenue
> Lewiston, ME 04240-6018
> (207) 786-6354, FAX (207) 786-6035
> E-mail: cbeam@bates.edu
> html://www.bates.edu/muskie_archives
>
>
>
>
>
> > Had the United States allowed elections to be held in Vietnam after the
> > defeat of the French in 1954 as called for in the Geneva accords, the war
> > would never have taken place.  But instead, American diplomats, lead by John
> > Foster Dulles,  scuttled the elections (which Ho Chi Minh would have easily
> > won, by every account) and then maneuvered to install a series of corrupt
> > buffoons (Bao Dai, Diem, and various generals and political strongmen) in
> > the newly created state of South Vietnam to do our bidding.   Therefore, the
> > resulting carnage was a direct result of American Cold War political
> > strategizing. And please site your source for the claim that more Vietnamese
> > died after the fall of Saigon in 1975 than had died during the war.  I've
> > seen that figure tossed around for years, and no one has ever provided me
> > with a source for that claim.
> >
> > Here is an interesting fact-at  the end of WWII, during a ceremony in Hanoi,
> > Ho Chi Minh declared Vietnam to be a Republic.  In attendance were various
> > American dignitaries, and American aircraft flew overhead.  Ho also quoted
> > from the Declaration of Independence during his speech.  Talk about missed
> > opportunities.
> >
> > Howard
> >
> >
> > > While that "crazy Asian war" may have ended with the fall of Saigon, the
> > > killing did not.
> > >
> > > The Stalinist and Maoist of North Vietnam and Cambodia killed more people
> > > consolidating their victory than died during the war.
> > >
> > > Not everyone on this lists thinks that this is something that we should be
> > > celebrating.
> > > Paul R. Scott
> > > Records Manager (and former Capt. USMCR)
> > > Harris County, Texas
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Patrick J. Prior
> > > >
> > > > I am sending this response to the list instead of just to you only
> > because
> > > > you did.
> > > >
> > > > No, he was a major figure in the anti-war movement here in Madison and I
> > > > was just sharing the story about a good friend of mine -- mostly with
> > > > Midwest Archives Conference members for whom I don't have a separate
> > > > list.  He was never in the military to the best of my knowledge, just
> > > > celebrating an end to "that crazy Asian War" as the popular song had
> > it --
> > > > and as a lot of us did 25 years ago.
> > > >
> > > > Frank.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 12:27 PM 5/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Frank,
> > > > >
> > > > >I am having a hard time understanding this post.  Was Quinn somehow
> > > > >involved in the final mad rush from Saigon in 1975?  Or was he an
> > > > anti-war
> > > > >protester?  Or both?  And what was he celebrating?
> > > > >
> > > > >Yours in Haste,
> > > > >Patrick J. Prior
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On the 25th anniversary of the end of the war -- and also May Day -- it
> > > > is
> > > > >fitting to remember the contributions of one of our own to that effort.
> > > > >
> > > > >Patrick M. Quinn, formerly of this shop and now archivist of
> > Northwestern
> > > > >University, was interviewed by the Madison evening newspaper, The
> > Capital
> > > > >Times, on Saturday, April 29th for their article on "The Fall of
> > > > >Saigon."  The front page article concluded with:
> > > > >
> > > > >         "Patrick Quinn had been gone from Madison for a year, but the
> > > > > calls from
> > > > >UW friends from around the country flooded in as images of a helicopter
> > > > >pulling away from the US. Embassy in Saigon flashed on the TV screen.
> > > > >         Quinn, a key organizer in Madison's anti-war movement and the
> > > > > assistant
> > > > >archivist at the State Historical Society, moved on to Northwestern
> > > > >University in 1974 [Patrick worked at the SHSW before coming to the
> > > > >University Archives], where he became the head archivist.  He said he
> > > > >'banged back that Old Style' beer in a private celebration with his
> > > > family,
> > > > >but said there weren't any public celebrations to join down there.
> > > > >         The war, he noted, had been fading for years, but there had
> > been
> > > > > no real
> > > > >conclusion until that moment."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> > > Problems?  Send e-mail to Robert F Schmidt <rschmidt@lib.muohio.edu>
> >
> > A posting from the Archives & Archivists LISTSERV List!
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> >
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> >
> > Problems?  Send e-mail to Robert F Schmidt <rschmidt@lib.muohio.edu>
> >
>
>
> --IAA04468.957271643/abacus.bates.edu--
>

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Or to do *anything* (and enjoy doing it!), use the web interface at
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Problems?  Send e-mail to Robert F Schmidt <rschmidt@lib.muohio.edu>