Re: [compost_tea] Re: Soaked Tea

From: Robert Norsen <bnbrew_at_yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 23:15:19 -0700 (PDT)

Scenario, Kirk, E-coli did take a life and a liver of a kid here in Wa. They traced it to ground beef. More recently strawberries were found the source of E-Coli. Dirty irrigation ditch water you say. So water can contaminate crops with E-coli. Manure in ditch water didn't make a target. Do you doubt that compost TEA would make a target? I didn't claim in my "potential scenario" that CT on lettuce had ever infected anyone. Elaine's tests show clearly that manure compost is likely to retain some E-Coli unless it is expertly processed. Are you expecting expertise and care from each of thousands of composters? Then Elaine showed evidence that under anaerobic conditions that E-Coli is very likely to be transmitted to the tea. From the same research she showed that, even when compost that was known to carry E-Coli was used as a base for an aerobic tea process, In MANY TESTS NO E-Coli came thru the TEA.
 
The scenario I depicted as possible at a pot-luck is a possibility I am not willing to risk. But none of us are in this compost tea development alone. If you, Kirk, produce a tea with E-coli and it turns into a disaster it will affect you AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THIS CAMPAIGN TO IMPROVE AGRICULTURE WITH THIS MARVEL OF NATURE. And of course it will affect many others and our lovely planet if any - even one tea maker loses once, in that form of Russian Roulette. If one such incident or anything like it occurs how long do you think it will take the USDA or one of its; agencies to print regulations that would assure Monsanto a clear field. The government agency that can devastate this program dam near came to the conclusion once. If we allow hazardous tea types to be made and used and fail to make a clear distinction between that and safe liquids then this business deserves the regulation that will destroy the potent value we know it has.
 Am I steamed? Dam right. I'm watching a highly valuable free ranging wonderfully researched supplements industry be targeted for destructive regulation because the industry as a group did allow some profit hungry idiots to pedal stuff that is disastrous to the unwitting user. A defect in the way supplements are managed opened the door to regulators. Pharma benefits. The world's people lose.
 
One disaster traced to Any Form Of Compost TEA. - - - USDA and Monsanto will reduce CT to what is once was. Essentially unknown. I think Elaine deserves and I want better than that. What is so difficult about making Aerobic TEA that we need to tolerate a less effective, hazardous product to continue as an alternate using the same name and claiming similar merit. Are we that lazy or is it stupid? Must we see 9-11 size proof to act on what science describes is probable? Bob
 
 
 
  

Kirk Leonard <kirk_at_oregonatural.com> wrote:
Who-yah, got something going here... Thanks James for your thoughts. We
could benefit from the politicking you suggest but I know I can't afford it.
That's why our getting connected (by individual and group members here...)
to the new congressional organic caucus is the next best thing. I sent a
note to Peter DeFazio, a founder, about the Oregon Tilth manure
summit tomorrow, for instance. Easy to do.

Frank, thanks for your comments, too. Hope that bird's behaving better.
I'd loan you my shotgun if I had one. You said you didn't think heated,
dried manure would be a problem, but I wonder. Has this manure been
researched? My concerns, besides that pathogens could still make
it through a process like that, are the chemical and drug residues. As far
as I can tell the "processed manure materials" category (#4) in NOP's
compost recomendations was invented to serve big beef, factory feed lots,
who also use a lot of chlorines. Could be an air pollution problem, even.
I'd never heard of it before, anyway. I fear it's just another way of
dumping damaging chemicals, and what might happen on the ground.

Bob, I can almost feel the shreeking too, thinking about going to work at
Monsanto. Tell you what, when you apply for that job I'll be right behind
you.:-)

Before I get to more Bob reply, I want to thank Mike for making clear to me
the main problem of old time tea. (Duh) The teas from which the name and
image of "manure tea" came. "Soaked." SOAKED. I've heard weeks. Eeek!
Compost tea should not be soaked, hmm? Soaking is easy to detect, and you
shouldn't do it, as it invites anaerobes. I have learned - observing that
plants can respond in a day - that you can get all the benefits of a
hand-stirred nutrient tea in less than an hour - and all the biology goes to
the soil, too - so it doesn't seem to need soaking. The other part, likely
the larger part of any problems people may have had with simple teas is the
compost.

As the good doc says, if it's not in the compost it won't be in the tea. I'd
add if she hasn't already that if it is in the compost it can be caused to
be in the tea. If you're stupid enough. As I recall, the strawberry
incident Bob mentions occurred because ditch water with manure in it was
used for watering. Bad water. Nothing to do with compost tea.

Bad compost is the biggest problem with compost tea, not how it's made.

At my farm market yesterday I had another sad conversation with a couple
whose raised bed garden had gone south with bad compost and it made me
realize that not only is it hard to get good compost unless you make it
yourself it's impossible to get it unlaced with clopyralid hereabouts from
most all suppliers. Sad situation. Oregon made a better law this year but
it'll be a couple years before we can be sure. It's good we are learning
and asking about quality of composts.

Bob -- On NO NO NO... what tempo are you on? I can think of several good
tunes. Seriously, I'd like to think we could harmonize, and I would like
greatly if you would cite an incident of the following:

> Scenario - church pot luck serves a great salad. x members subcome to
> E-coli. E-Coli takes a kids life and another kids liver. Gardener is
> suspect cause. E-coli is taced to "Compost TEA" that was used to water
> the lettuce.

I can imagine this happening but my skepticism is peaked. (OD: Who could be
that stupid?)

Yes some ecoli was put on fruits by really dumb growers in California,
watering. Have you ever heard of an instance of a problem with a compost
tea, however it was made? Has anyone out there heard of this? Please say
so if so. Seems we need to know this.

I think you are over-reaching, Bob. Simpler teas can be good teas, too.
Stirred teas sprayed can be beneficial.

Ecoli problems are big beef problems in this country today, not compost
problems, and I fear they could become compost tea problems if processed
manure materials are used to make tea, all you oxygen watchers out there...
And the way USDA would have it, manure compost is a problem, eh? This is
way whacky and needs to be fixed.

Think of us in Corvallis today. We will be working on manure and I expect
to be amazed again.

-- Kirk









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Received on Mon Jun 30 2003 - 03:25:09 EDT

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