srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha srImadh varavara munayE namaha Dear Sri Parthasarathy swamy, Please go through all your quotations from the pAsuram. No where it states that the jeevAthmA has freedom. These are the pAsurams - in which emberumAn is said to have influenced the jeevAthmAs in their decision - in which it is said that emberumAn considers even the ignorant acts of the jeevAthmAs as a pretext. Where is it indicated that the jeevAthmA has swAthanthryAm. Regarding the blame of "sarva mukthi prasangam", I would refer all to the wonderful lines of Sri T.C.A Venkatesan swamy ----------Quote------------ Once a chEtanan reaches the Lord's abode our pUrvacharyas have indicated that he/she is still not guaranteed a place in the nithya vibhUti. It is said that He might still reject the chEtanan and send him back. This is attributed to His svAtantraya kalyANa guNa. This guNa not only means that He is not held answerable to anyone for His actions; it also means that His actions are not tied to the actions of anyone else. Hence, to say that performance of Saranagati guarantees mOksha would be incorrect. -----------Unquote--------- Please read the underlined sentences very carefully. This IS the essence of my postings always. Yes, He is NOT ANSWERABLE to anyone. In fact if we think that He is answerable, and hence He may get "sarva mukthi prasanga" dOsham, it is only our true swarUpam of "pArathanthryam" which gets affected. When our true nature is that we are slaves of emberumAn, do we have the right to question Him? I am sure, your answer is NO? When we, who have realized the true nature of our swarUpam which is "slave to emberumAn", are going to question emberumAn's activity, who else is going to question Him. Again, when He is not answerable to anyone including ourselves (even considering that we ask such a question to Him), where is the question of emberumAn needing to answer the non-believers. Coming to the saraNAgathi aspect in the posting of Sri T.C.A Venkatesan swamy, he has really brought out the essence of it. Though many people say that Sri nammAzhwAr did some actual physical saraNAgathi by saying "adikkeezh amarnthu pugundhEnE", Sri nammAzhwAr himself has clarified his stance in the next pAsuram aptly quoted by Sri T.C.A Venkatesan swamy. Sri nammAzhwAr, in this pAsuram, clearly states that even his act of performing saraNAgathi was induced in him by emberumAn. So, does the "saraNAgathi", in context of sAdhyOpAyam has any case at all. I am sure it is clear from here. The same aspect is reflected by Sri nammAzhwAr again in thiruvAimozhi itself, in fact much earlier in the second decad, where he says, "enadhAvi thandhozhindhEn, ini meeLvadhenbadhuNdE". He it seems that AzhwAr says, he has performed an act of surrender (swa pravrutti). But immediately in the same pAsuram he says, "endhAvi Ar, yAn Ar, thandha nee koNdAkkinayE". Means, "Who is my soul and who am I to perform this. It is you who gave me my soul (for this body) and took me into your fold" (Complete swa pravrutti nivrutti). Similarly Sri ALavandhAr says in his stOthrarathnam first ," ahamadhyaiva mayA samarpitha:", means I surrender before you. But immediately in the next slOkam, he says "mama nAtha! yadhasthi yOsmyaham, sakalam thaddhI thavaiva mAdhava, niyathaswamithi prabuddha dhI:, athavA kinnu samarpayAmithE!". He says, You are my master and You gave me everything and You order me for everything and everthing is Yours, so what can I give to You. Very very clear wordings of our AzhwArs and AchAryAs to prove that it is only siddhOpAyam that grants us mOksham. AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh "thirunarayanan parthasarathy To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx iyengar" cc: <shyamala45@rediff Subject: Re: [ramanuja] Re: Thirumaalai-2 mail.com>< > 17-05-02 05:21 AM Please respond to ramanuja Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha. Appan Thiruvdigale Saranam "Posting of Sri Vinjamoor Venkatesh dated 16th May, 2002." Dear Baghavathas, Accept my pranam. The information required in this posting is " Is there any pasuram by Azhvar where the Jeeva swathantharyam is spoken of" Adiyen is furnishing informations as understood by me to the best of my knowledge. If it is erroneous Adiyen may be corrected. Sutras 381 onwards of "SREEVACHANA BHOOSHNAM' will be of help. PRDHAMAPRAVARTHI SWATHANTHARYAM to jeevan is to be inferred ; otherwise, Emperuman will have to be blamed for all the acts(asat acts) of the Jeeva. Also, Emperuman is granting 'moksham' to those only who are mature enough and would want nothing short of Emperuman Emperuman ONLY.They cannot remain a single second away from him. Emperuman is desireous of salvaging these jeevans to whom he has given body and 'karanas for acting' to worship HIM like Nityasuris.Unfortunately the jeevans are attracted by earthly pleasures and has fallen in 'Asatkarmas'. Emperuman remain silent at this time of first action. Thereafter, they have to undergo the results of their action . From here only, Emperuman is waiting for an oppurtunity to bestow some benifits to the jeeva. At the same time he should not be blamed as partial to some body. So, on some pretexts, the jeevan would have expressed his name without intention; like that some of the actions., say sheltering Adiyars under his roof without intention etc., Such trifile acts will be counted as 'sukrutham' and the jeevan will be bestowed by the Lord's grace. If the jeevan does not protest to this sort help, the Grace of Emperuman continues and the Atmayatra of the Jeevan has started.Slowly he gets promotion till 'moksha is attained. ----Azhvar Pasurangals: "INRU ENNAI P PORULAKKI THANNAI ENNUL VAITHAN '( Thiruvaimozhi. 10-8-9) 'ENNANRISEITHONO ENNENCHIL THIKAZHVATHUVE' ( THIRUVAIMOZHI 10-6-8) 'NADUVE VANTHU UYYAKOLKINRA NATHAN' (Thiruvaimozhi1-7-5) 'ARIYATHANARIVITTHA ATTHA NEE SEITHANA ADIYENARIYENE' (Thiruvaimozhi 2-3-2) 'PORULALLATHA ENNAI PORULAKKI ADIMAIKONDAI' (Thiruvaimozhi. 5-3-3) 'ENNAI THEEMANAM KEDUTHTHAI' (Thiruvaimozhi 2-7-8) 'MARUVITHOZHUME MANAME THANTHAI' (Thiruvaimozhi-2-7-7) >From these Pasurams, it can be inferred that jeevan has fallen under bad days or (ways) and Emperuman has helped him immensely without asking ( the cumulative effect of trifle acts done without intention) ie., NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI. 'VERITHE ARUL SEIVAR SEIVARKATKKU' (Thiruvaimozhi 8-7-8) Emperuman will bestow his grace for whom he wants decide to give; for He has created a desire in the mind of the jeevan to turn towards Him; the jeevan has also responded favourably. 'ETHIRSOOZHAL PUKKU ENAITHORU PIRAPPUM ENAKKE ARULKAL SEYYA VIDHI SOOZHNTHAL ENEKELAMMAN THIRUVIKRAMANAIYE' (Thirvaimozhi 2.7.6) Emperuman THIRUVIKRAMN has determined to bestow his grace in every janma to me.. Such is my fate ' Azhvar express his joy gratitude and wonder for this NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI' 'VIDHIVAYKKU INRU KAPPAR YAR ?' (Thiruvaimozhi5-1-1) Here the Sutra 403 of Srivachanabooshanam is given...'KRUBAI PERUKAPUKKAL IRUVAR SWATHANTHARYATHHALUM TKHAYA ONNATHAPADI IRUKARAI YAZHIYA PERUGUM'. I hope the above explain the JEEVAN'S PRADHAMAPRVARTHI SWATHANTHARYM AND EMPERUMAN'S NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI. Yours Adiyan Parthasarathy Dasan. On Thu, 16 May 2002 vinjamoor_venkatesh wrote : >srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha >srImadh varavara munayE namaha > >Dear Smt Sumitra, > >The worldly analogies cannot always be used to describe >emberumAn's >activities. He is "otthAr mikkArai ilayAya mAmAyan" and "eedum >eduppum ilAdha eesan". There is a limit to which the worldly >analogies and logic can be used to describe emberumAn's >activities. > >The analogy provided by you is convincing though, to prove that >there >is a freedom to the jeevAthma. But, what I wanted to know was, >is >there any pAsuram by our AzhwArs', where this jeeva swAthanthryam >is >spoken of. Not to my knowledge. Well, I know only 2000 pAsuram. >What >I understood was that, this swAthanthryam is accepted only by >the >vadakalais, in order to get rid emberumAn of the "sarva mukthi >prasanga" dOsham. If at all this is acceptable to us, surely >this >might have been emphasized by any AzhwAr or AchArya. Can >learned >members please throw light on this. > >AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam >adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan >Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh > > >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > _________________________________________________________ Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India or Abroad http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The information contained in this message is legally privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressed individual or entity indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person). 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