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srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
srImadh varavara munayE namaha

Dear Sri Parthasarathy swamy,

Please go through all your quotations from the pAsuram. No where it states
that the jeevAthmA has freedom. These are the pAsurams
- in which emberumAn is said to have influenced the jeevAthmAs in their
decision
- in which it is said that emberumAn considers even the ignorant acts of
the jeevAthmAs as a pretext.

Where is it indicated that the jeevAthmA has swAthanthryAm. Regarding the
blame of "sarva mukthi prasangam", I would refer all to the wonderful lines
of Sri T.C.A Venkatesan swamy

----------Quote------------
Once a chEtanan reaches the Lord's abode our
pUrvacharyas have indicated that he/she is still not
guaranteed a place in the nithya vibhUti. It is said
that He might still reject the chEtanan and send
him back. This is attributed to His svAtantraya
kalyANa guNa. This guNa not only means that He is
not held answerable to anyone for His actions; it
also means that His actions are not tied to the
actions of anyone else. Hence, to say that
performance of Saranagati guarantees mOksha would
be incorrect.
-----------Unquote---------

Please read the underlined sentences very carefully. This IS the essence of
my postings always. Yes, He is NOT ANSWERABLE to anyone. In fact if we
think that He is answerable, and hence He may get "sarva mukthi prasanga"
dOsham, it is only our true swarUpam of "pArathanthryam" which gets
affected. When our true nature is that we are slaves of emberumAn, do we
have the right to question Him? I am sure, your answer is NO? When we, who
have realized the true nature of our swarUpam which is "slave to
emberumAn", are going to question emberumAn's activity, who else is going
to question Him. Again, when He is not answerable to anyone including
ourselves (even considering that we ask such a question to Him), where is
the question of emberumAn needing to answer the non-believers.

Coming to the saraNAgathi aspect in the posting of Sri T.C.A Venkatesan
swamy, he has really brought out the essence of it. Though many people say
that Sri nammAzhwAr did some actual physical saraNAgathi by saying
"adikkeezh amarnthu pugundhEnE", Sri nammAzhwAr himself has clarified his
stance in the next pAsuram aptly quoted by Sri T.C.A Venkatesan swamy. Sri
nammAzhwAr, in this pAsuram, clearly states that even his act of performing
saraNAgathi was induced in him by emberumAn. So, does the "saraNAgathi", in
context of sAdhyOpAyam has any case at all. I am sure it is clear from
here.

The same aspect is reflected by Sri nammAzhwAr again in thiruvAimozhi
itself, in fact much earlier in the second decad, where he says, "enadhAvi
thandhozhindhEn, ini meeLvadhenbadhuNdE". He it seems that AzhwAr says, he
has performed an act of surrender (swa pravrutti). But immediately in the
same pAsuram he says, "endhAvi Ar, yAn Ar, thandha nee koNdAkkinayE".
Means, "Who is my soul and who am I to perform this. It is you who gave me
my soul (for this body) and took me into your fold" (Complete swa pravrutti
nivrutti).

Similarly Sri ALavandhAr says in his stOthrarathnam first ," ahamadhyaiva
mayA samarpitha:", means I surrender before you. But immediately in the
next slOkam, he says "mama nAtha! yadhasthi yOsmyaham, sakalam thaddhI
thavaiva mAdhava, niyathaswamithi prabuddha dhI:, athavA kinnu
samarpayAmithE!". He says, You are my master and You gave me everything and
You order me for everything and everthing is Yours, so what can I give to
You.

Very very clear wordings of our AzhwArs and AchAryAs to prove that it is
only siddhOpAyam that grants us mOksham.

AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh




"thirunarayanan 
parthasarathy To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
iyengar" cc: 
<shyamala45@rediff Subject: Re: [ramanuja] Re: Thirumaalai-2 
mail.com>< > 

17-05-02 05:21 AM 
Please respond to 
ramanuja 






Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha.
Appan Thiruvdigale Saranam

"Posting of Sri Vinjamoor Venkatesh dated 16th May,
2002."

Dear Baghavathas, Accept my pranam.

The information required in this posting is " Is there any
pasuram by Azhvar where the Jeeva swathantharyam is spoken of"

Adiyen is furnishing informations as understood by me to the
best of my knowledge. If it is erroneous Adiyen may be
corrected.

Sutras 381 onwards of "SREEVACHANA BHOOSHNAM' will be of
help. PRDHAMAPRAVARTHI SWATHANTHARYAM to jeevan is to be inferred
; otherwise, Emperuman will have to be blamed for all the
acts(asat acts) of the Jeeva. Also, Emperuman is granting
'moksham' to those only who are mature enough and would want
nothing short of Emperuman Emperuman ONLY.They cannot remain a
single second away from him. Emperuman is desireous of salvaging
these jeevans to whom he has given body and 'karanas for acting'
to worship HIM like Nityasuris.Unfortunately the jeevans are
attracted by earthly pleasures and has fallen in 'Asatkarmas'.
Emperuman remain silent at this time of first action. Thereafter,
they have to undergo the results of their action . From here only,
Emperuman is waiting for an oppurtunity to bestow some benifits to
the jeeva. At the same time he should not be blamed as partial to
some body. So, on some pretexts, the jeevan would have expressed
his name without intention; like that some of the actions., say
sheltering Adiyars under his roof without intention etc., Such
trifile acts will be counted as 'sukrutham' and the jeevan will be
bestowed by the Lord's grace. If the jeevan does not protest to
this sort help, the Grace of Emperuman continues and the Atmayatra
of the Jeevan has started.Slowly he gets promotion till 'moksha is
attained.
----Azhvar Pasurangals:
"INRU ENNAI P PORULAKKI THANNAI ENNUL VAITHAN '( Thiruvaimozhi.
10-8-9)
'ENNANRISEITHONO ENNENCHIL THIKAZHVATHUVE' (
THIRUVAIMOZHI 10-6-8)
'NADUVE VANTHU UYYAKOLKINRA NATHAN' (Thiruvaimozhi1-7-5)
'ARIYATHANARIVITTHA ATTHA NEE SEITHANA ADIYENARIYENE'
(Thiruvaimozhi 2-3-2)
'PORULALLATHA ENNAI PORULAKKI ADIMAIKONDAI' (Thiruvaimozhi.
5-3-3)
'ENNAI THEEMANAM KEDUTHTHAI' (Thiruvaimozhi 2-7-8)
'MARUVITHOZHUME MANAME THANTHAI' (Thiruvaimozhi-2-7-7)
>From these Pasurams, it can be inferred that jeevan has fallen
under bad days or (ways) and Emperuman has helped him immensely
without asking ( the cumulative effect of trifle acts done without
intention) ie., NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI.
'VERITHE ARUL SEIVAR SEIVARKATKKU' (Thiruvaimozhi 8-7-8)
Emperuman will bestow his grace for whom he wants decide to
give; for He has created a desire in the mind of the jeevan to
turn towards Him; the jeevan has also responded favourably.
'ETHIRSOOZHAL PUKKU ENAITHORU PIRAPPUM ENAKKE ARULKAL SEYYA
VIDHI SOOZHNTHAL ENEKELAMMAN THIRUVIKRAMANAIYE' (Thirvaimozhi
2.7.6) Emperuman THIRUVIKRAMN has determined to bestow his grace
in every janma to me.. Such is my fate ' Azhvar express his joy
gratitude and wonder for this NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI'
'VIDHIVAYKKU INRU KAPPAR YAR ?' (Thiruvaimozhi5-1-1) Here
the Sutra 403 of Srivachanabooshanam is given...'KRUBAI
PERUKAPUKKAL IRUVAR SWATHANTHARYATHHALUM TKHAYA ONNATHAPADI
IRUKARAI YAZHIYA PERUGUM'. I hope the above explain the JEEVAN'S
PRADHAMAPRVARTHI SWATHANTHARYM AND EMPERUMAN'S NIRHETHUKA KRUPAI.
Yours Adiyan Parthasarathy Dasan.
On Thu, 16 May 2002 vinjamoor_venkatesh wrote :
>srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
>srImadh varavara munayE namaha
>
>Dear Smt Sumitra,
>
>The worldly analogies cannot always be used to describe
>emberumAn's
>activities. He is "otthAr mikkArai ilayAya mAmAyan" and "eedum
>eduppum ilAdha eesan". There is a limit to which the worldly
>analogies and logic can be used to describe emberumAn's
>activities.
>
>The analogy provided by you is convincing though, to prove that
>there
>is a freedom to the jeevAthma. But, what I wanted to know was,
>is
>there any pAsuram by our AzhwArs', where this jeeva swAthanthryam
>is
>spoken of. Not to my knowledge. Well, I know only 2000 pAsuram.
>What
>I understood was that, this swAthanthryam is accepted only by
>the
>vadakalais, in order to get rid emberumAn of the "sarva mukthi
>prasanga" dOsham. If at all this is acceptable to us, surely
>this
>might have been emphasized by any AzhwAr or AchArya. Can
>learned
>members please throw light on this.
>
>AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
>adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
>Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh
>
>
>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam
>
>
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>
>

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