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Sri Parthasarathi thunai
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha

Dear Sri Venkatesh,
Good that I was able to convince you to this
level(ofcourse all by Sri Parthasarathi and acharya's
grace). There is absolutely no doubt that all our
actions from the start till the end are influenced by
bhagavan. Like a mother writing on behalf of the child
by holding its hand and then appreciating the kid for
writing well bhagavan also does everything behind us
and gives us the credit. So it appears that we are
doing something. He just creates a safe position for
himself so that both his samathvan and svathantriyam
are not affected, by just showing to the world that
the jeevatma has been given a svathantram and that
since he opted to fall in bhagavan's feet bhagavan is
taking care of his bhaktha. That is it. All are his
leelas. As he says "Mama Maaya durathyaya" we can
never understand his mayai unless his sankalpam is so.

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasyai
Sumithra Varadarajan

> I am convinced somewhat, but for my better
> understanding, I have a
> question?
> 
> Do you agree that eventhough He places a choice
> before the jeevAthmA, He
> influences the decision of the jeevAthmA?
> 
> If your answer is yes to the above, then I have
> understood your posting
> clearly and also, the point that the jeevAthmA does
> not have any
> swAthanthryam is proved.
> 
> AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
> adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
> Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "sumivaradan" 
> 
> <sumivaradan@y To: 
> ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> ahoo.com>< > cc: 
> 
> Subject: 
> [ramanuja] Re: Thirumaalai-2 
> 17-05-02 05:03 
> 
> AM 
> 
> Please respond 
> 
> to ramanuja 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sri Parthasarathi thunai
> Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha
> 
> Dear Sri Venkatesh,
> > The worldly analogies cannot always be used to
> describe emberumAn's
> > activities. He is "otthAr mikkArai ilayAya
> mAmAyan" and "eedum
> > eduppum ilAdha eesan". There is a limit to which
> the worldly
> > analogies and logic can be used to describe
> emberumAn's activities.
> 
> I do accept that Emperuman's leelas cannot be fully
> explained with
> the analogies of the world but our acharyas used the
> worldy analogies
> to make even the lay man understand the high arthas
> of the sastras.
> So the worldly analogies do provide us a lot of
> insight into the
> Bhagavat visayam and to tell you more all is created
> by bhagavan and
> everything has a link.
> 
> > The analogy provided by you is convincing though,
> to prove that
> there
> > is a freedom to the jeevAthma. But, what I wanted
> to know was, is
> > there any pAsuram by our AzhwArs', where this
> jeeva swAthanthryam
> is
> > spoken of. Not to my knowledge. Well, I know only
> 2000 pAsuram.
> What
> > I understood was that, this swAthanthryam is
> accepted only by the
> > vadakalais, in order to get rid emberumAn of the
> "sarva mukthi
> > prasanga" dOsham. If at all this is acceptable to
> us, surely this
> > might have been emphasized by any AzhwAr or
> AchArya. Can learned
> > members please throw light on this.
> 
> Again my point never proved that the jeevatma had
> free will. The
> bhagavan can always restrict us. What if bhagavan
> showed us only the
> Nitya vibhuti we will have no other option to
> choose. If in the
> example the father got the child only the knowledge
> kit the child is
> left with no other option but since the father
> wanted to entertain
> the child and build his maturity he got the game. 
> Similarly bhagavan
> who wanted to develop the maturity of the jeevatmas
> and also wanted
> to keep up his leelas in this world showed the
> jeevatma both his
> vibhuti's knowing well that the jeevatmas will get
> attracted only to
> the leela vibhuti(vaasana bhalam) . Again Bhagavan
> has a hand behind
> it. He is only playing with us and we are not
> capable of doing
> anything with svathantriyam. Actually there is only
> a airline
> difference in these understandings of the vadagalais
> and tengalais.
> When we look in a neutral view adiyen feels we can
> understand better.
> Again adiyen is not capable of providing you the
> appropriate
> paasurams. Hope some learned scholars can do the
> same.
> 
> Adiyen Ramanuja dasyai
> Sumithra Varadarajan
> > AzhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
> > adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
> > Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam
> 
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=== message truncated ===


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