RE: [compost_tea] Re: back pack sprayers to use for compost teas?

From: John Cowan <vivax_at_northlink.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:44:32 -0700

I was suggesting a stronger solution for cleaning, maybe 1.5%. Diluted to
100 ppm or less it should be safe with most microbes. Comment, Elaine?

John Cowan
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jeff Young [mailto:sharkman_04101_at_yahoo.com]
  Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 5:48 PM
  To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [compost_tea] Re: back pack sprayers to use for compost teas?


  For what it's worth: I have a couple of large growers who clean their drip
lines with H2O2 after an application of Organic Gem (fish). Their goal,
obviously, is to clean the lines and guard against clogging and smell. They
claim it works really well, but I know they use a stronger solution than the
100 ppm that you suggested.

  John Cowan <vivax_at_northlink.com> wrote:
    Why not circulate some dilute hydrogen peroxide to kill and dissolve the
bacterial slime? The hydrogen peroxide solution could be greatly diluted
after cleaning [< 0.01%] and the solution used for further brewing.

    John Cowan
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ted Peterson [mailto:ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net]
      Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 2:10 PM
      To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: back pack sprayers to use for compost
teas?


      I thought that copper plumbing was desired becasue in a PH neutral
environment, copper degraded less than lead or PVC. What does the
concentration of 3ppm do? Would this occur in a PH 7 tea that was in the
sprayer for a brief time? I would think that bacterial and fungal death
from nozzle turbidity would be far more than the few microbes killed by a
small amount of copper leeched from a tank wall.

      When we spayed for grapes, we used a tank that had previously used
fungicide. Now, we cleaned it thoroughly but there is little doubt that
some of the residuals remained. After all, we couldn't crawl inside the
spray tank and clean each and every corner and small hole. Yet, we got
adequate coverage on the grapes.

      I do believe in cleaning right after brewing. When I look at some of
the commercial brewers on the market and ones Elain recommends, I notice
that they use a system of piping and tubes to move the water. Now, I have
done testing with these systems and find that they are almost impossible to
clean correctly. One reason is that anytime liquid moves past an angle or
even a slow bend, the liquid towards the inner or smaller radius moves
slower than the liquid near the outer radius. This causes a situation where
some of the material moving through the liquid settles and builds up near
the inner radius. This is especially crucial on 45 and 90 degree angles.
So that means that some anaerobes will build up in those areas. Unless each
and every pipe is cleaned and sterilized thoroughly right after use, there
will be build up.

      I don't think this is a big problem if the volume of aerobes is
sufficient to get the tea to do what you intend the tea to do. Of course,
if you don't clean at all, there could be an eventual problem with highly
anaerobic tea. The functional aerobes would be there but at some point the
anaerobes would outcompete them for food.

      Even a normal brewing process produces some anaerobes. I don't see
how to eliminate them totally. What I want to do is create an environment
that favors the aerobes so they naturally outcompete the anaerobes.

      One of the experiments I did was to heat the water to 80 degrees. The
bacteria did grow and DO showed activity. However, I was making an
environment that favored pathogens rather than functional aerobes and that
was not my intention.

      Another thing about temperature. In the winter, the bacteria that
grow and function in the 70 degree range are dormant (so to speak) and other
bacteria are functional. To brew tea at 70 - 75 degree range and then apply
it in a temperature of 55 degrees gives them little chance of survival in
the wild. So I try to get the tea water temp not more than 5 - 6 degrees
higher than the outside air temp. That way, the bacteria (I think) have a
better chance of survival.

      I do know about switchers and other forms of low-temp bacteria but I
have to rely on my compost to give me enough diversity and my brewing
methadology to give me successful bacterial/fungal growth while keeping
within the constraints of my site (where I'm putting the tea) environment.
As Elaine says, it's all a matter of balance.

      Spraying bacteria that thrive in 70 degrees into an environment that
is 55 degrees almost guarantees that they will not survive in sufficient
numbers to do much good as far as I can tell by my research. I'm willing to
be educated if I am wrong about this so if someone (Elaine?) has some data
to the contrary, I am willing to completely change my methadology.

      Ted Peterson
      Earth-Wise/Spirit of the Earth



      ----- Original Message -----
        From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
        To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 12:48 AM
        Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: back pack sprayers to use for compost
teas?


        Hi Ted -

        It's the concentration of copper in the water when the tank is
copper. The critical concentration is 3 ppm. In a tank of copper, that
concentration can occur just by simple equilibrium with water. Copper
fittings are much less likely to result in copper reaching a toxic level.

        But your thoughts about the biological decomposition of surfaces
should be taken to heart. Why do we clean tanks between each run? To
prevent the anaerobes from building up and resulting in exactly the kinds of
problems you were talking about.

        Elaine Ingham
        President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
        SFI Corvallis, OR
        SFI Port Jefferson, NY
        SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
        SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
        SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
        www.soilfoodweb.com


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Received on Tue Dec 16 2003 - 21:04:23 EST

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