RE: [compost_tea] Re: back pack sprayers to use for compost teas?

From: Jeff Young <sharkman_04101_at_yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:48:19 -0800 (PST)

For what it's worth: I have a couple of large growers who clean their drip lines with H2O2 after an application of Organic Gem (fish). Their goal, obviously, is to clean the lines and guard against clogging and smell. They claim it works really well, but I know they use a stronger solution than the 100 ppm that you suggested.

John Cowan <vivax_at_northlink.com> wrote:Why not circulate some dilute hydrogen peroxide to kill and dissolve the bacterial slime? The hydrogen peroxide solution could be greatly diluted after cleaning [< 0.01%] and the solution used for further brewing.
 
John Cowan
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Peterson [mailto:ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 2:10 PM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: back pack sprayers to use for compost teas?


I thought that copper plumbing was desired becasue in a PH neutral environment, copper degraded less than lead or PVC. What does the concentration of 3ppm do? Would this occur in a PH 7 tea that was in the sprayer for a brief time? I would think that bacterial and fungal death from nozzle turbidity would be far more than the few microbes killed by a small amount of copper leeched from a tank wall.
 
When we spayed for grapes, we used a tank that had previously used fungicide. Now, we cleaned it thoroughly but there is little doubt that some of the residuals remained. After all, we couldn't crawl inside the spray tank and clean each and every corner and small hole. Yet, we got adequate coverage on the grapes.
 
I do believe in cleaning right after brewing. When I look at some of the commercial brewers on the market and ones Elain recommends, I notice that they use a system of piping and tubes to move the water. Now, I have done testing with these systems and find that they are almost impossible to clean correctly. One reason is that anytime liquid moves past an angle or even a slow bend, the liquid towards the inner or smaller radius moves slower than the liquid near the outer radius. This causes a situation where some of the material moving through the liquid settles and builds up near the inner radius. This is especially crucial on 45 and 90 degree angles. So that means that some anaerobes will build up in those areas. Unless each and every pipe is cleaned and sterilized thoroughly right after use, there will be build up.
 
I don't think this is a big problem if the volume of aerobes is sufficient to get the tea to do what you intend the tea to do. Of course, if you don't clean at all, there could be an eventual problem with highly anaerobic tea. The functional aerobes would be there but at some point the anaerobes would outcompete them for food.
 
Even a normal brewing process produces some anaerobes. I don't see how to eliminate them totally. What I want to do is create an environment that favors the aerobes so they naturally outcompete the anaerobes.
 
One of the experiments I did was to heat the water to 80 degrees. The bacteria did grow and DO showed activity. However, I was making an environment that favored pathogens rather than functional aerobes and that was not my intention.
 
Another thing about temperature. In the winter, the bacteria that grow and function in the 70 degree range are dormant (so to speak) and other bacteria are functional. To brew tea at 70 - 75 degree range and then apply it in a temperature of 55 degrees gives them little chance of survival in the wild. So I try to get the tea water temp not more than 5 - 6 degrees higher than the outside air temp. That way, the bacteria (I think) have a better chance of survival.
 
I do know about switchers and other forms of low-temp bacteria but I have to rely on my compost to give me enough diversity and my brewing methadology to give me successful bacterial/fungal growth while keeping within the constraints of my site (where I'm putting the tea) environment. As Elaine says, it's all a matter of balance.
 
Spraying bacteria that thrive in 70 degrees into an environment that is 55 degrees almost guarantees that they will not survive in sufficient numbers to do much good as far as I can tell by my research. I'm willing to be educated if I am wrong about this so if someone (Elaine?) has some data to the contrary, I am willing to completely change my methadology.
 
Ted Peterson
Earth-Wise/Spirit of the Earth
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: back pack sprayers to use for compost teas?


Hi Ted -

It's the concentration of copper in the water when the tank is copper. The critical concentration is 3 ppm. In a tank of copper, that concentration can occur just by simple equilibrium with water. Copper fittings are much less likely to result in copper reaching a toxic level.

But your thoughts about the biological decomposition of surfaces should be taken to heart. Why do we clean tanks between each run? To prevent the anaerobes from building up and resulting in exactly the kinds of problems you were talking about.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


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Received on Tue Dec 16 2003 - 20:17:04 EST

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