Re: [compost_tea] Re: PLUM CURCULIO ?

From: <soilfoodweb_at_aol.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:09:36 -0500

Thank you for finally responding with what you do to your land.

Whenever I get someone saying, "none of the organic approaches work", it is always that they are doing something to un-balance the biology. Organic mathods work, but you have to pay attention to what mother nature is saying back to you about what you are doing. When you still have pests, that means you are doing something out-of-whack still.

The fact that you are doing all this work, and you still have brown areas when your dog applies N to the grass says you don't have the right biology in that soil. A few curculio are to be expected if your neighbors have them, but for you to have serious damage tells you that mother nature is sending you a message. Something is seriously out-of-whack.

How can you possibly have a seriously out-of-whack system when you are working so hard?

You need to understand what you are doing when you add each of the different things you say you are adding.

How can you not have the right biology, when you are doing all the great things you are doing?

Let's go through what you are doing, if that's ok with you. Grin - not giving you the chance to object, really, am I? I do hope it's ok. But for everyone else, look out, this is another long post. Be prepared to get specific.

If soil probes go easily through the soil, then this says good soil structure to the depth you drive the probes. Kudos to you!

But, what about below that? When you dig a hole, what happens at 4 feet? 6 feet? 8 feet?

- and -

Are you really going through soil? Or are you just going through organic matter that you have built up over the years?

I ask because you say you have a problem, despite all your efforts, you still have a problem. So we have to figure out why. That means I’m in detective-mode to figure out what it could be. I’ll be asking you to supply more information, because you haven’t told us the whole story here.

So, here we go -

You said -
"No tillage" - ok, you aren't destroying what you have worked so hard to build. Excellent.

You said:
"1- Laid drainage tiles around all the fruit trees to drain
water to French wells I constructed in two central areas of the yard."

How rapidly does the soil dry out? I put in French drains in my yard as well, because my yard is solid clay – a pottery used to be where my house is. Good clay for making pots, but growing plants? Nope. The drains worked (until they clogged up with clay). While they were working, the soil dried out in the summer. So now, I’m building soil structure with the organisms, and that’s doing a better job of draining the soil, without the Army Corps of Engineers operation. Still building though. I need to do a core aeration on the soil, and fill with sand. Sometimes, you have to do engineering. Need decent structure so water will be held in the soil all summer, no matter what the heat load is.

So, just a question back to you – what have you observed about water during the year? Too much, too little? When?

You said -
"2- Spread compost over the entire yard once a year. Spread a second appplication of compost around the fruit trees, to the drip line in the fall. In areas where there is dog damage I spread compost about once a month."

Have you looked at the compost to see if it is fungal? Can you see fungal strands?

If not, you might not want to put the compost around the trees so deeply. The fact that you have dog damage – I am assuming you mean brown spots, not dogs digging – says the biology is lacking. It says you have bacteria that convert the N in the urine to nitrate. But that is the form of N which means browning on the plants. Not good. You have to convert that nitrate into protein, microbial biomass and organic N. You need to improve diversity of bacteria in the soil, so you have some organisms that take up the nitrate and move it into biomass, instead of nitrate. You need fungi, with species that also utilize urea to make biomass, not nitrate. You need protozoa to work in the root systems of the plants to make nutrients available to the plants. But not just N, but Ca, Mg, B, Si, whatever…….

You said -
"3- Mulch the grass clippings. Mulch around the trees with hardwood mulch. Core fertilize with organic fertilizer and/or bonemeal, bloodmeal, alfalfa pellets, compost, rock phosphate, greensand, sul-po-mag, rock flour, peanite and ground kelp."

Exit the bloodmeal. Too much N, way too much benefit to pests and diseases, especially when not balanced with enough carbon.

Why alfalfa pellets? You are putting too much N in the system. Do you have weed problems? Pests really like this much N. Put on just mulch and compost, nothing else. Especially if you have been doing this regime for some time, you are overloading your system with N, N, N, and not enough Ca. Too much P, K, Na.

How much N, P, K is added with compost? With the mulch? Why do you think that level of N is not enough?

What to you think happens to all the N, N, N, that you are adding? If it all stayed in the system, what would your N levels be after 5 years of your fertilizing practices?

What is the amount of N you remove with the produce and eat? Why do you need to put back more N than you removed last year?

So, where is the excess going?

Balance is the ticket here. Instead of spending so much money on these amendments, spend some money on a soil chemistry analysis so you know what is out-of-balance chemistry-wise. With all these inputs, you are driving your soil seriously bacterial, and harming the fungi.

Think about what sul-po-mag actually is. What is the impact going to be on the fungi?

You said -
"4- Mow in the leaves from the trees. Collect copius amounts of raked up leaves from the neighbors and mulch them onto the lawn and fruit tree areas EVERY fall. Thickness of leaves mulched is at least 3 inches before mulching."

What kind of trees do you have? What’s in the leaf material? What kinds of tannins and terpenes?

Leaving the leaves under the trees would be fine, but on your grass? Maybe not the best idea. Perhaps you should compost them, not apply directly to the grass.

I have described how to compost in the backyard system, where you turn once after the pile is made and mixed, and in 4 months, you have great compost. Do that instead. Add calcium into the compost process. Add any lacking nutrient element into the compost process. I bet you have a problem with iron, and you need to add ferric citrate to the composting process. Soil chemistry will say you have plenty of iron, but the plants are telling you they don’t have iron. What’s going on there?

You said -
"5- Keep a number of collected leaf bags over the winter and mulch mow them into the entire yard and fruit tree areas each spring. So now the yard is getting two feedings of leaves. One more than nature provides."

And is this a good thing? Are you building soil, or building a thick thatch layer in your grass area (which may be why your soil probe goes in happily, but is it really soil? Just a suggestion, you need to go out and assess whether this IS the situation)

Under the trees, are you just building layer on layer of leaf material? Is this truly soil? Or just compacting leaf material which can give your trees fits?

Do you have fungi to decompose the leaves? If not, the trees are stressed and that would explain the curculio. Especially with all the N you add.

But, you need to be the eyes in this detective investigation. Tell those of us on the list reading this thread what is actually going on. I’ve suggested a simple explanation, but maybe the simple explanation isn’t the actual explanation. More observation is needed. Give us the facts, sir, and nothing but the facts.

Please go look and assess what is happening in the grass, the veggies, and under your trees. Are you really dealing with soil? Which means sand, silt , clay in the organic matter, not just pure organic matter. You should have no more than 1 inch to maybe – no more! – 2 inches of leaf material happily decomposing under your plants (you are in California, right? The depth of litter this time of year depends greatly on where you live, and the dpeth of litter I would say is right varies through the country and with time of year, so bear with me here).

Add more mulch when the mulch begins to get down to a half to 1 inch deep.

Please look at litter decomposition rate – how fast is something you put on the soil last October disappearing?

You wrote -
"6- Every two months broadcast one of the following: Alfalfa
pellets, cornmeal, chicken layer feed, turkey growers feed.
Sometimes I fertilize more than once every two months."

Can your plants possibly need this much N?

Are you feeding your soil the right things?

What biology does alfalfa feed? Is it fungal or bacterial food?

What biology will be selected by the presence of layer or growers feed?

What biology does corn meal enhance?

What are you doing to the organisms in your soil?

Part of that answer lies in observing fast these materials are decomposing. When you add these materials on the soil surface, what happens to them?

You wrote -
"7- Spray the entire yard with blackstrap molasses solution at a rate of 2 Tbl. per gallon. Spray about every two weeks. In the fall I increase the rate to 3 Tbl. per gallon and spray once a week from October 15 to November 15."

What is the purpose of this? Who are you feeding? What organisms are you setting up a habitat for by putting on small, but constant amounts of molasses?

Molasses might be ok on the grass, but under the trees? You are asking for diseases. In the fall, you should not molasses on a soil that should be fungal dominated, unless you lack all biology and need to start the process of bringing soil back. Hopefully, you are way beyond that, so application of molasses to the soil under the trees is not going to help move things in the direction the trees need.

You wrote -
"8- Apply soil drenches of compost tea every two weeks to the fruit tree roots. (I've now used ACT for two years and soil drench at the same rate and spray everything about once a week during the growing season.) Add kelp to the ACT during brewing along with many other foods. I brew about two 5 gallon buckets of ACT per week during the growing season (i.e., April through November)."

What foods do you use in your tea?
Who is growing in your compost tea?
Do you have any idea of what organisms are in your compost? Are you helping the grass, or the trees with the tea you are making?

You wrote -
"9- Spread the dregs from the ACT around all trees, veggie and flower beds and shrubs."

This should be helping. Are you seeing fungal growth in this material?

Once the compost dregs go on the soil, it should absolutely bloom with good fungi. If you see that, great. If you see no fungal growth in the material you are putting down, you have a problem. The compost is not conducive to fungal growth, and you need to change sources of compost, or do something to activate the fungi in the compost before you use the compost in your tea.

If you see no fungal growth in the compost dregs, please check EC in the compost.

You wrote -
"10- Water with a dechlorinating filter attached to the hose."

Good.

You wrote -
"11- Lasagna compost all the raised beds with organic matter. Mainly raw horse manure and leaves in the fall."

What is the ratio of manure to leaves? Do you see fungal hyphae growing? Temeprature the compost reaches?

You wrote -
"12- Spread the pulp leftover from juicing my home grown produce around bushes, trees, raised beds and, of course, the fruit trees."

Please compost this material. What biology are you selecting for when you apply this material? Is this helping or hindering your fungal-requiring plants?

You wrote -
"13- Have two birdfeeders that are constantly frequented by birds. Bird droppings all over the place decompose into the yard. Birds eat many of the pest insects. Hummingbirds are always in my yard, bats frequent the yard at night and I oftentimes see them at dusk and dawn. Spiders live everywhere!! Worms are everywhere!!"

This is great news. But then, why do you need to be fertilizing over and over and over again? Too much of a good thing is not a good thing.

The birds are providing fertilizer. Your dogs are providing fertilizer, you are putting on alfalfa meal, bloodmeal, manure, chicken feed, and more and more N, P, K.

All the critters you are trying to get in your soil should be doing the nutrient cycling processes for you. You are working so hard to get your labor force in place, but you are over-doing it! Please, let your critters do their jobs. Stop over-loading the N, P, K, sit back, and just enjoy life more!

Which worms do you have? The little red wrigglers? Nightcrawlers? Who is home? This can tell us much about the foodweb.

You wrote -
"14- Mulch mow all dead veggie plant material into the lawn each fall."

Doing a compost pile would be better. If you have any disease on the veggies, and you don’t compost it, you can be setting yourself up for a problem.

On the other hand, how fast does the dead veggie material disappear on your lawn?

You wrote -
"15- Every month I boil a bunch of leftover leaves I collected in the fall and make about two gallons of leaf tea. Sprinkle a diluted solution of this leaf tea around the fruit trees during the growing season. So now the fruit trees are getting "leaf" food many more times per year than nature provides."

Do you know that you are making things better with this constant input of certain kinds of foods? There’s a reason nature provides foods when and where she does. Balance is the key. Are you pushing things bacterial, or fungal with the constant management?

You wrote -
"16- Save coffee grinds from work and spread this around all plants every year."

Who are you feeding? Coffee grounds are foods for …who?

You wrote -
"17- I can get whole corn and crimped oats very cheaply where I live. I always have these on hand and freshly grind up these feeds into a meal and spread them around all plants. I do this periodically during the growing season. Each week some plant is getting a feeding of these freshly ground meals. Of course the fruit tree areas are a major receipient of these meals. These freshly ground meals are in addition to the large amounts of alfalfa pellets, etc., I buy and use in the garden. I also have whole soybeans that I grind up in small quantities and add to the corn and crimped oats meals. (Same for flax seeds.)"

Great bird food. Based on what Jeff Lowenfels observed, these materials feed which kind of soil critters?

How fast do these materials decompose, once you put them down?

You wrote -
"18- I know this might sound disgusting but periodically I dilute human urine and sprinkle that solution around all plants during the growing season."

Great, more N. More K. More nutrients …. Do you need them? Who are you feeding by putting on this much N? What is the effect of this on the soil biology? What happens to urine when it is applied to soil?

You wrote -
"19- I use fish emulsion, liquid rabbit fertilizer, Bill's Perfect Fertilizer and other purchased organic liquid fertilizers I've had good results from over the years."

Oh boy. When you over-apply N, what biology do you select?

You have plum curculio and what other pests? Weeds? Fungal diseases?

Please, compost everything. Reduce the N additions, you don't need them, really. Get a soil chemistry done, so we can see what it is that is really limiting plant production. It's not N, I can tell you that!

And if perchance you do a plant tissue analysis, and N is low, it is not because your soil lacks N, it is because uptake of N is limited by the lack of some other nutrient. You have to track down what the lacking nutrient is, you need to get the RIGHT biology for your trees going, so they will provide the nutrients needed at the rates the trees need.

What other management do you do to deal with the weeds?

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


 

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Received on Tue Jan 06 2004 - 15:36:51 EST

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