Re: [compost_tea] "this camp v. that camp"

From: <soilfoodweb_at_aol.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 03:40:04 -0400
I worked with both Soil Soup and Growing Solutions when they started making tea machines.  Both groups took information from me, used it to develop their machines, but then broke faith with me, as they could not obtain the standards SFI has shown are needed to improve plant health.

People in both companies were initially effusive in their praise of me, until they could not "make-the-grade".  Organisms did not survive in their machines, were not present in their teas, and suddenly, I wasn't a wonderful person anymore.

As McGiver would have said, "oh darn".  I am straightforward, and to the point.  I base what I say on facts; hard, solid facts.  If you can't get the critters in the tea, I won't support your machine.  And that's that. 

I don't tell machine makers how to make their machines, however.  I'll make suggestions about what I know, but I don't know everything.  I'm a microbiologist, not an engineer. 

When a machine won't produce a tea with the organisms in it, why expect me to tell you what to do?  Both Soil Soup and Growing Solutions seemed to expect that I was supposed to solve their problems for them.  Except I had to solve their problems without changing their machine designs. 

What they wanted was someone to bless their machines, and not cause trouble.  They wanted a rubber-stamper.  They wan't a "pet scientist" to give them scientific approval, without any real science behind it.  I wouldn't give the salesmen the answers that they wanted to have, so then my science was "suspect". 

So, they went to BBC Labs, and got the approval they wanted, using plate count methods. 

Except, plate count "diversity" measures have never been shown to have a relationship with plant growth, or plant health. 

Plate counts can document the presence of certain plant disease-causing organisms.  That's what plate count are used for - not for diversity assessment. 

But then, doesn't that mean a higher number of individuals, and more species on plate media would mean, in fact, more disease?  Not better "diversity"? 

A higher plate index value would mean a greater diversity of disease-causing organisms.  The media chosen for plate methods, and the conditions used in the lab are those used to grow and isolate disease organisms.  Beneficials don't grow all that well in lab conditions.  Hum, interesting direction for more consideration here. 

We have documented the relationship between the testing done by SFI and plant growth and plant health.  Not so with plate methods. 

BBC Lab has no data to back up what their "index values" mean.  If you believe I mis-speak here, or am biased, then please, show me the data.  Data from across a range of ecosystems, the way we have done for direct methods, is required.  Take a look at my list of publications.  The data that document direct counts and plant health are there. 

The teas that were brought to the ICTC meeting a week or so ago, one of which was "fresh" from the Soup kitchen, showed that there was no biology present in Soil Soup.  Remember the smell that came from that jug?  Nothing in the Soil Soup but anaerobic bacteria and insect larvae. 

Prove for yourself the lack of beneficial biology in Soil Soup for yourself.  Prove the low level of beneficial biology in Growing Solutions teas for yourself too.  Get a light microscope manual and assess your own tea. 

If you put high numbers of bacteria onto leaf surfaces, you can block some diseases from getting through to the leaf surface.  But that is not the sum total of what compost tea should be able to do for you.  Compost tea should be able to protect leaves from disease getting to the leaf surface, should sequester nutrients so they do not leach, so erosion does not occur, and reduce the need for fertilizer imputs, should improve nutrient availability to the plant, at the place and time the plants need, should improve soil structure, so roots grow deeper, have the aeration needed, and holds water better, thus reducing the need to water as much. 

These benefits are not possible if all you have in the liquid is bacteria.  You have to have AEROBIC bacteria, aerobic fungi, protozoa and nematodes.  Good compost contains all of these things.  Good compost should also contain all of these organisms. 

We have to push QUALITY compost tea.  Or the reputation of the industry suffers. 

Talk with nurseries who put in Soil Soup machines a year ago.  Most that I know have stopped using the kitchens, because they smell so bad.  The public doesn't like things that stink.  If it smells bad, it usually is bad. 

Could the problem with Soil Soup and GSI machines be fixed?  I've pointed out the problems and what cause them, over and over again. 

But Linda has NEVER responded with any data, information, or testing to show she is even aware that there is biology in compost tea. 

Do people who snipe, complain and agitate serve a useful purpose?  They do serve to get people riled up, and increase discussion on the list serve.  So maybe it isn't all bad. 

But why is it that the one or two people that rile up others  always manage to slip around the fact that they never show any data?  Linda's only "proof" is that, according to her, lots of people use Soil Soup.  Well, lots of people use Scott's turf builder.  Lots of people use Miracle Grow.  Lots of people smoke cigarettes.  Lots of people use things that are bad for them everyday. 

How is it that people still use things that are harmful?  Millions of dollars spent on PR and marketing.  Duh. 

Soil Soup raised lots of money so they could market their product far and wide.  The plan, as I understand it, was to hype the product, build up the company, and then sell it to someone who just sees the "market share", doesn't understand the product.  Typical entrepreneur thing.  Ed Neff has done it before, and is doing it again.  It's the American Way, don't you know? 

But where is Soil Soup's science?  Testimonials don't cut the mustard, especially when they are mostly from Ed Neff's family members.  Well, at least the last time I looked at the Soil Soup website, that's how it was.  I admit that I haven't spent much time looking at their website recently, so things could be different.

At least Growing Solutions has a partial test showing that application of their tea reduced a bacterial pathogen on carrot. 

There are replicated scientific studies about aerobic compost tea in the Compost Tea Brewing Manual.  There are studies showing aerated tea benefits plant growth. 

So, data are required.  Jeff has explained his basis for his statements.  Give your experiences.  Other folks on the list can assess what is solid information, and what is just hype. 

--
Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
SFI Culiacan, Mexico
SFI Jerome, Idaho
http://www.soilfoodweb.com


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Received on Mon Aug 02 2004 - 09:27:25 EDT

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