[compost_tea] Re: pasture exp - betsy to tim and others

From: betsy <betsy_at_rossfarm.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:47:18 -0500
Sorry to have let this flap get this big. I don’t sit before the computer=
regularly.

I am not a researcher, not drawing conclusions, just observations – but I= am
making decisions for my operation based on those observations. I am just a =
grass farmer trying to grow out really fine beef for my kids and grandkids =
and trying to do it without chemicals or corn and to improve our land, move=
toward more sustainable operation and hopefully make some money as we go.
Some good questions, ‘grazebeef’ and I will attempt to answer.

Q1:I'd like some clarification on how or better yet what was done on
these pastures to elicit such a tremendous response.
Ans 1: I am presuming you are referring to Elaine’s statement that after =
tea “animals were up to 2.5 lbs average daily gain (ADG) – that that th= is
year, after continued tea application, gains are up to 4 lbs day.”

Guess you better load up and come to Texas and see our big boys! But let me=
clarify: we use Tru-scale scales to weigh the animals – and in 2003 our = ‘big
boys’ that we planned to harvest gained 3 lbs ADG between January 2003 an= d
March 21, 2003; that increased to 3.8 ADG as of April 24, 2003. (and yes, i= n
those averages we have some in the 4 and 5 lbs a day category – I never <= BR> dreamed that was possible with just grass). Obviously we didn’t maintain =
that rate of gain through the summer or for their entire lives but we did <= BR> come in a little less than 2 lbs for the year.  Did better than we hav= e ever
done. 

Previous to converting from conventional to sustainable, we were putting on=
less than 1.5 lbs ADG (sorry Elaine if I told you .5 ADG – my mind and mouth  don’t always sinc) for our young animals that were grazing an= d
getting a little corn to help them along. (boy, was that corn a mistake in =
my opinion). Remember, we are talking about our preferred group of grass- feds. We let them have only quality biology pastures, all they can eat, all=
of the time.

When Elaine was at the farm in July one of the neighbors said he believed <= BR> this years group of big boys were gaining 4 lbs a day, and I said of course= ,
but truly, I don’t know – we have torn down our pens in a rebuilding mo= de
and I haven’t weighted them in 3 months. They look real good, though, and=
our cutting yields are holding up there (no, I don’t have anything writte= n
up on that phase of our operation)..

So, the answer to your question is: We got this wonderful response from these animals because in addition to management practices such as rotationa= l
grazing, improved genetics, low stress livestock handling, planting high quality forages, tons of planning for all the farm activities, we quit with=
the 34-0-0 type fertilizer, quit with the herbicides, quit with the
supplemental feed, quit with the worming AND added back the biology to the =
pastures!

Q2:Were the pastures grazed by similar animals at the same time?
Or was this a timeline study where gain was measured over time on the same=
group of animals as they spent time on the different pastures?
Ans 2: Gain was measured over time on the same group of animals as they spent time on a particular set of pastures that had been treated at least 3=
times with CT from January to August. The definition I use for myself when = I
say “good biology pasture” is one that has had at least 3 Compost tea <= BR> applications in one year.

Q3: if so, when did you start and when did you end the experiment. What siz= e
were the animals
Ans 3: Not really an experiment – just keeping records. Received animals =
from my brother’s west texas ranch after weaning at 584 lbs August of 200= 2. 
We were harvesting at 1120 to 1440 at ages 20-26 months.  This year we= think
we will hit our target weights (80% of breeds grown weight) within 20-22 months. We like to harvest larger animals.

Q4: and what was the predominate forage? 
Ans 4: In my good biology pastures: Warm season grasses, Bermudas (some coastal, some jiggs and some Tifton 85), dahl bluestem, eastern gamma grass= ,
commom Bermuda overseeded with rye grass and/or oats, vetches, clover mixes=
of various amounts of red cherekee, crimson, rio alfalfa, white clover, berseen in winter and spring time.  The main point being these pasture= s were
my best ‘biology’ pastures.

Q5: Increased protein levels on already good forage is not necessarily a good thing to have for growing animals. Energy is the key to good gain on <= BR> most forages.
Ans 5: Sure, know that, and we test 4 or 5 times a year – not each pastur= e,
but rotate the different times of season and the different forages. Kent Mills at 325-207-3657, an A&M graduate and nutritionist uses the Dairy = One,
DHI Forage Testing Lab for testing. We have been pulling these tests for th= e
last 8 years at this location. We have been able to maintain or increase energy levels in most pastures. Kent is doing a summary of our forage data =
for the HRM field day being held here at the farm September 18th, 2004.&nbs= p;

Q6:What types of soil are you grazing on and when did it last have any
nutrients? 
Ans 6:  Blacklands – we have 300 acres in bottom lands and 200 acres= upland.
Sounds like you want my fertilizer list for each paddock. You will have to =
come down to see that (not cause it’s a secret but because it is in a lit= tle
black book), but as a general statement our old management practice was to =
never put out more than 60 N or others at any one time. We would apply
fertilizer 3-4 times a year on most pastures/fields. When we decided to go =
to sustainable (organic?) we ask K Chandler (We have done chemical soil tests forever with Brookside labs and more recently with K Chandler of Texa= s
Plant and Soil Lab (http://www.= txplant-soillab.com) to give us a
recommendation to transition to organics. Based on tests, K recommended 17-= 5-
16-3-6 which we used from spring of 2002 until January of 2004 (no inorgani= c
fertilizer anywhere since 1/21/04 on a couple of oat pastures). We never pu= t
out more than 200#a/A and often with compost tea treatment.  I would s= ay
that we got beautiful results but then you would want to know all about that. The questions you ask are good, but as you know, not so simple to answer.

Q7: How much CT was applied when you did apply it?
Ans 7: We tried to follow Elaines recommendations: 15/20 gal/a soil drench =
followed with 3 five/seven gal/a foliaer spray. Timing is probably more critical than we at first thought – early spring, just before the awakeni= ng
is probably most critical for us here in terms of weed control.  Then = that
last application after warm season grasses go dormant with added hydrolyzed=
fish seems to be very effective for us in terms of ‘kick’ for next spri= ng.
But remember, this is the part of Texas where every drop of water becomes <= BR> precious to grasses.  Water holding capacity increased very rapidly, <= BR> compaction was mitigated quickly (5-6 weeks), root depths increasing, feede= r
roots developing very quickly. This biology stuff is really very powerful <= BR> and has helped us a great deal (just our opinion – no conclusions). We do=
have records of application on each pasture.

Q8: Also, how did you conclude that CLA was improved?
Ans 8: We test for CLAs and Omega 3:6 with Dr. Tilak Dhlman (435-797-0919) =
of the Skaggs lab at Utah State University, Dept of Animal, Dairy and
Veterinary Sciences. We do not test every beef we harvest but do test
several times a year. We didn’t have enough CLAs in 2001 to say
our ‘grassfed beef had em’, but now we do.

Q9: Exactly what do you mean, was the overall quantity of CLA improved
versus untreated,
Ans 9:Not sure about what you are asking.

Q10: was a control
even used,
Ans 10:  no, if you mean CLAs. Results from earlier years (1 test in 2= 001
and 2 in 2002) were used as baselines.

Q11: how many measures were taken to base that conclusion on? (3 with 2003 =
herd, 2 with 2002 herd – corn supplemented with forage, 1 in 2001; just s= ent
some off for 2004 group)

Q12: What were the overall levels of fatty acids in the lean tissue, both before and after treatment?
Ans 12: please clarify – not sure what you are asking – what treatments= ? 
CT? Think this might be costly to find out.

Hope this helps clarify and explains. What kind of research are you doing a= t
Arkansas?  Is any of this information helpful to you? Are you working = with
Anne Wells of ATTRA?  Appreciate your questions and if I can help, let= me
know. Just realize I hate writing, hate sitting still this long, and have a=
tendency to jump around and not complete thoughts out loud (you noticed, bu= t
too nice to say so, thank you).  Come if you get a chance.  We ha= ve so much
to learn.

Betsy Ross from Granger, Texas
410 CR 493
Granger, Texas 76530
betsy_at_rossfarm.com


> Message: 3        
>    Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:17:25 -0000
>    From: "grazebeef" <timj_at_ncat.org> > Subject: Re: pasture exp
>
> Fine,you have observations, lets see some of them. This group is more<= BR> > nervous than a room of long tailed cats in a rocking chair factory. > If you are unwilling to share info, how is any progress going to be ma= de?
> This thing of holding out for BIG $$ for definitive tests is
> fruitless.  Take your observations, organize them, improve them w= here
> needed and build a library of information.  Until I can see some = of
> this secret library to base my own decisions on, you have done
> nothing more than create another skeptic and yes, to make the CLA
> claim there had better be some formal lab test results because you > can't just observe a steak and tell what the CLA level is.  Getti= ng
> back to the pastures, what results were observed.  If something w= as
> done to them with CT, surely someone knows when, how, quantity
> applied, grazing days, size of cattle, weights?  If someone is no= t
> collecting all this observational stuff to make a case, why not?
>  Don't blame those of us that ask questions when you want legitim= acy,
>  but are unwilling to answer some simple questions to find out



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Received on Fri Aug 13 2004 - 01:13:28 EDT

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