Response to Chris (Was Re: [compost_tea] Re: constructive look at our list?)

From: Ted Peterson <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 11:41:14 -0800

Chris:

You are personalizing the list to comport with the way you think it should =
be for whatever reason. I belong to about 12 different listgroups and ther=
e are people who try to do this on every list with exactly the same results=
. I know you are passionate and driven but your efforts to force the list =
to operate as you percieve it simply will not work. You are compiling a ma=
nual that supposedly will give best practices. However, if you are activel=
y brewing and working with clients, you should know that best practices are=
 those defined by the client and satisfy the client's needs.

I have brewed a lot of batches of tea. Compared with some it would seem a =
miniscule amount but to me it's a lot of tea -- over 300 batches. I think =
I know a little bit about what I am doing and I have learned a lot. Howeve=
r, all this came at an expense.

I'll give you an analogy: You go to law school and learn how laws work. Th=
e laws you don't know, you at least know how to interpret. You invest into=
 data bases that help you research. You invest your time and effort to fin=
d the best course through the law. Should you be required,or bullied into =
giving the efforts of your labor away? Should you take your cases pro bono=
?
 
The efforts of Elaine and others who openly share knowledge are appreciated=
. What is not appreciated is to have to "come up" to the standards of one,=
 self-appointed, list monitor however well meant the monitor's motives. It=
 is the same on every list to which I belong.

My suggestion to you is to back off. Start brewing and give some results o=
f that process. If you do not brew -- and for the life of me, I can't tell=
 if you have ever brewed a batch of tea, kept data, analyzed your results, =
generated a project and/or project report for a client and worked with a cl=
ient to keep that client happy -- keep compiling data as you get it but do =
it with the knowledge that you are getting data from people who are actuall=
y doing the work. You are not here to judge what anyone does or impose you=
r own standards. The list moderator is supposed to do that and whack peopl=
e who repeatedly violate the rules of the list.

If you don't like what a person posts, stop reading those emails. Chances =
are you will not miss too much. It seems to me that you have closed your m=
ind around a small aspect of what this list is and are causing problems tha=
t have nothing to do with CT.

Unsubstantiated claims:

The world of full of claims of greatness. What is said on a listgroup such=
 as this has little import. If someone buys one of my machines or plans fo=
r one and it doesn't work, the whole list will know about it. It does me n=
o good to misrepresent anything I do because it has no bearing on anything =
that will help me make money using CT. Besides, soon everyone will know th=
at I have misspoken regarding the claims of my machines. So, let the list d=
ecide for itself what has merit and what doesn't. People can make all kind=
s of claims. Robert makes tons of claims for his brewers. If they didn't =
work as advertised, we would be told about it. There is some talk of clean=
ing his machines and some earlier stuff but I guess he fixed it so it's a m=
oot point. Nobody on this list has bought a machine of mine or a set of my=
 plans although a lot of other people have. I will not give one away to ge=
t press on this list as to reliability or product claims. Yet, I feel free=
 to give factual results and conclusions without telling anyone "exactly" h=
ow I did it.

I look to this list to challenge my way of thinking and open options for br=
ewing or handling fluids that I haven't researched. Hat's off to Hi_Yield =
for not accepting what is stated and throwing a critical eye on many of the=
 statements and claims. He may be caustic but he has shown up with the dat=
a -- gotta respect that. Similarly with Elaine, she is factual and the dat=
a holds. That doesn't mean that every utterance is sacrosanct. I am havin=
g a salt problem in turf that shows all other indications of health. Elain=
e said the critters would nullify the salt. That hasn't been my experience=
. However, do I blast her for that? No, we are all researchers to a degre=
e so I have to relook at what I am doing to ensure that I didn't miss somet=
hing then reanalyze and try more experiments and reanalyze until I find the=
 problem. Now, when I do, I will not give it away nor should I be required=
 to do so by anyone.

And I violated my own rule here because I stated I wouldn't repond to this =
kind of uselessness again. Oh well. . .

Ted Peterson
Earth-Wise/Spirit of the Earth
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: chriscreid
  To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 7:30 AM
  Subject: [compost_tea] Re: constructive look at our list?


  Reece, whoa, I think maybe there's a misunderstanding here -- please
  show me where I said people had to give me their information or be
  damned?

  What I am trying to say in the post attached to your note is, after
  spending hundreds of unpaid hours reading tea posts and trying to
  piece together something coherent from reading what people have
  said, it's really really hard to do it and no wonder people get
  frustrated trying to learn about tea from our list.

  I tried to make a point to Ted Peterson about not posting results
  without a context. Ted wanted to publish results but not explain
  how he got there. I suggested that results without a context is
  marketing, and that such posts belong on a Sunday. Sorry to rehash
  this, Ted, but I want to make the context clear here. If I
  understood Ted's post correctly, I was *interpreted* by Ted as
  wanting to gain proprietary info or force him to reveal his
  secrets. HyYield went on to suggest that some poeple say they are
  doing something to try to help the list, but are really benefiting
  from it personally instead (Sorry HiYield for not putting an exact
  quote in here -- see HiYield's post to make sure I am not putting
  words in HY's mouth).

  I'm not interested in that -- I do respect the hard work people have
  put into their products and the time and money they have put in. If
  I wanted to blow somebody out of the water, I would print the
  photographs of Bob's brewer that I sent to Elaine. Why did I not
  post them? Because somebody could have used them not to understand
  where they need to clean their brewer, but to build his brewer, and
  that would not be right.

  I am truly sorry to not have your good will, Reece. Many, many
  people have taken their time and generously written about what
  they're doing and how they're doing it, and they may feel my example
  trivialized their effort. So I apologize if this is where you and
  others were left.

  I'm trying to point out that maybe we need to rethink how we go
  about building our supply of information. We can do it better and
  all get results faster.

  As I see it with 450 people on this list, if each person spent even
  a half hour writing a post about their experience, we would have 225
  hours of experience contributed. That's over a month of full time
  work -- quite significant. We would have 450 examples of how tea
  does and doesn't work.

  I have to take responsibility for what I wrote and where it left
  people. So if you have more doubts, anger, upset, and so on ,
  please feel free to contact me on or off list so we can work it
  out. That goes for anybody who has been left in upset or distress
  by anything I've written.

  Thanks for speaking up about how you feel instead of letting it
  simmer.

  Chris Reid

  --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "w.reece speas" <wrspeas_at_y...>
  wrote:
> You just got done telling evryone they had to give you there infor
  or be damed ,how do you expect to be treated , kind of makes me wish
  i hadnt wrote what i wrote earlier, sticking up for you ,
  anyway ,give it a rest if your gonna brew and sell take what people
  are kind enough to offer and let it go ,take care reece
>
> chriscreid <reidchris_at_e...> wrote:In recent weeks as I've been
  following up with individuals for best
> practice document on ingredients input, I have received the
> following asides in the posts: "Gave up on the list -- too much
> traffic and not enough information," "too many advertisers," "I
  read
> all I can get my hands on about AACT -- this list is a conundrum" .
>
> And I've been thinking a lot about chocolate cake. In fact, this
> morning when I woke up I was laughing out loud about chocolate
> cake. I realized that if I were to try to learn about baking a
> chocolate cake by using a list like compost tea -- well, can you
> imagine a series of exchanges like this:
>



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Received on Sun Dec 21 2003 - 15:14:53 EST

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